Winds of Chaos

who here has run both of these campaigns? I've run some of Enemy within years ago but never Doomstones. I'm curious as to the opinions on the two was there one you liked better than the other or did you like both?

They are completely different. Doomstones is more DnD like. I don't think that is bad, but the enemy within is far better. I would say the doomstones are on a similar level as the final part of the enemy within.
I would remove something rotten in kislev from the enemy within.

I've GM'd both and have to agree with Zisse, they're a different feel, hard to compare the two in the literal sense.
Doomstones tended to feel more hack'n'slash, which is how I might describe DnD, so again in that sense I agree with Zisse whereas TEW felt it had more opportunities for roleplay, and was more investigative.

I liked them both, but how well they worked with your group tended to depend on the group, my die-hard WFRPers from way back when loved TEW as it had more meat on the bones so to speak, whereas Doomstones was more of an interconnected series of romps. My later group who were converts from DnD loved Doomstones as it felt familiar, but also loved getting into more dark and gritty things with TEW. Doomstones should only be played after TEW though IMHO, gives starting characters a chance to gain experience through TEW before going on the romp in Doomstones.

Between them I'd probably rate them both 5 out of 5, but TEW maybe more of a 5+

And again I find myself agreeing with Zisse, SRiK wasn't the best and took a lot of work to fit into the rest. I managed it, but it was less...smooth...had more coarse edges I had to work to shave off.

I agree about Kislev even back on the day when I used it a bit I wasn't happy with it. SRiK felt out of place.The TEW companion is a good resource and seems to help smooth out the edges a bit.

BestialWarlust wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 9:03 am I agree about Kislev even back on the day when I used it a bit I wasn't happy with it. SRiK felt out of place.The TEW companion is a good resource and seems to help smooth out the edges a bit.

I you don't like "Something Rotten in Kislev", you have a very good alternative: you can either smooth it up with Gideon's superb "The Enemy Within: A Companion" or use Timothy Eccles' excellent "A Private War" instead. Both were made by fans for fans and can be easily googled out.

I liked doomstones more out of the two, but this is mostly because none of my groups wanted to play tew in any real capacity, and the way doomstones is setup lends itself better to groups of mostly unfocused adventurers compared to tew's need for everyone to pay attention to the plot details.

hallucyon wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 2:58 pm

BestialWarlust wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 9:03 am I agree about Kislev even back on the day when I used it a bit I wasn't happy with it. SRiK felt out of place.The TEW companion is a good resource and seems to help smooth out the edges a bit.

I you don't like "Something Rotten in Kislev", you have a very good alternative: you can either smooth it up with Gideon's superb "The Enemy Within: A Companion" or use Timothy Eccles' excellent "A Private War" instead. Both were made by fans for fans and can be easily googled out.

Thanks I'd never heard of Tim Eccles' "A Private War before I just found a copy. I wish Gideons TEW companion existed back in the 90's when I first ran TEW it would made managing the campaign much easier.

TyCaine wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 7:51 amDoomstones should only be played after TEW though IMHO, gives starting characters a chance to gain experience through TEW before going on the romp in Doomstones.

An option could be to integrate Doomstones campaign into Sigmar's hammer quest (in Empire in Flames).

That is to say to send adventurers seeking Sigmar's hammer in the Vaults, up to the Dwarf stronghold of Dwarf War where Sigmar, in fact and contrary to the legend, did meet his fate.

We sort of liked both. The internet community is quite clear that "TEW" is the better one. Which is in my opinion at least partly true. Though TEW tends to be overrarted whereas Doomstones is underrated.

TEW differs in style as already metioned, as SoB is quite linear, DotR is quite sandbox on a grand scale, PbtT is sandbox on a small scale, SRiK is...well different and EiF is rather high fantasy.

Doomstones is rather D&Dish as it was orginally written for D&D. Especially in regard to today's view on Warhammer it needs some work by the GM to better fit. Still, it is not a dungeon crawl without RP-opportunities. My PCs interacted a lot with the diefferent factions and NPCs in the second (monastery), third (ogres) and fourth (dwarfs) part, and had a blast with the campaign. We still talk about some anecdotes now 20 years later...
I also recommend to not use it with starting characters. My players went through Lichemaster, Dying of the Light, some homebrew adventures and Death's Dark Shadow before venturing into the Vaults in their advanced careers (i.e. Highwayman, Amethyst Wizard lvl 3, Targeteer, Mercenary Sergeant, Assassin).
The later written 5th installment of the Doomstones is rather weird and not to my taste, but I used some elements out of it none the less to build my own final adventure…

So, the official order of Doomstones is something like:
1. James Wallis's « Crossing the Border » (published in Hogwash #3)
2. Basil Barrett's Fire in the Mountain (later compiled in Fire and Blood)
3. Grame Davis's « Ironstone Pass » (published in White Dwarf #132 and in Apocryphia 2: Chart of Darkness)
4. Simon Forrest's Blood in Darkness (later compiled in Fire and Blood)
5. Ken Rolston's « Deep Trouble in Karak-Zulvor » (published in Apocryphia 2: Chart of Darkness)
6. Basil Barrett's Death Rock (later compiled in Wars and Death)
7. Simon Forrest's Dwarf Wars (later compiled in Wars and Death)
8. Robin Laws's Heart of Chaos

I have a question regarding Death Rock, Dwarf Wars and Wars and Death:
I've read here that « If [Hogshead] had [changed the content of Death's Dark Shadow, it] would have mentioned it in the credits or in the introduction like [it] did in other reissues such as Doomstones... »
https://ffg-forum-archive.entropicdream ... ent-425665

And also that « The sequel to Fire [a]nd Blood, Wars and Death combines the two last books of the original Doomstones series into a single volume, and adds new material to lead into the final volume in this epic trilogy of adventures, Heart of Chaos. ».
https://eu.nobleknight.com/P/6167/Dooms ... -and-Death

Does anyone knows what is such additional material which leads into Heart of Chaos? Is there something else too in Wars and Death?
Is there new additional material too in Fire and Blood?

What is indicated in the credit and in the introduction of these two volumes published by Hogshead?

Many thanks in advance.

Spoilers.

Here are, as far as i know, all the changes that Hogshead made to 'Fire In The Mountains', 'Blood In Darkness, 'Death Rock', and 'Dwarf Wars' when Hogshead republished them as 'Fire And Blood' and 'Wars And Death':

1. Introductions that were repeated, in part or in their entirety, were combined.

2. The 'Gotrek The Troll Slayer' 'Special Section I' between pp.13 and 14 in Blood In Darkness was removed.
3. The 'Bloodaxe Alliance Troops' 'Special Section IV' between pp.45-46 in Death Rock was removed.
4. A full page picture on p.59 in Death Rock was removed.
5. A 'Warhammer Fantasy Battle' section on p.60 in Death Rock was removed.
6. A 'Warhammer Fantasy Battle' section on p.76 in Dwarf Wars was removed.
7. Adverts were removed.

8. An introduction page of PC POV narrative to Blood In Darkness was added on p.85 in Fire and Blood.
9. A section entitled 'Playing The Elements' was added on p.88 in Fire and Blood.
10. A 'New Spell' 'Corrode' was added on p.136 in Wars & Death.
11. An additional section entitled 'Using The Handouts' was added on p.136 in Wars & Death.
12. An 'Epilogue' was added on pp.174-176 in Wars & Death.

13. James Wallis wrote a new introduction to the Doomstones Campaign called 'Crossing The Border'. This was published separately.
14. Robin Laws wrote a new finale to the Doomstones Campaign called 'Heart Of Chaos'. This was published separately.

The Epilogue in Doomstones Volume II: Wars & Death "In which our heroes begin to learn exactly why the Crystals of Power are called Doomstones" is a way to set up Volume III of the Doomstones Campaign and describes what happens when the PCs attune to all four crystals and gives premonitions for each PC based on characteristics. Essentially when one of the PCs attunes to the fourth crystal, all the crystals fly together and 'doom' happens. The nature of that doom is described in Volume III.

The Epilogue from Doomstones 2, Rude Convergence, and Foreshadowing Most Foul, along with the Introductory Hand-outs in the Volume II Epilogue are exactly the same in Volume III except for the addition of the words "from Doomstones 2" and the typesetting of that title and the first line that follows. There is nothing additional in the Volume II Epilogue.

Graeme Davis' Wordpress 'Doomstones' tag.
Gideon's Awesome Lies Wordpress LOST WARHAMMER: THE FIFTH DOOMSTONE: The story of Flame’s unpublished conclusion to the Doomstones campaign. & Gideon's Awesome Lies Wordpress LOST WARHAMMER: THE FIFTH DOOMSTONE: Lost and found. Toby Pilling has shared the previously unpublished outline for the original Doomstones finale.

Many thanks for such detailed answer!