Karanthir wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 am
Capitaneus Fractus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am
That "fan" was Bryan Ansell and Rick Priestley, actually. Not really a "fan", nor two "fans" I would say.
To answer to your thought, well, that isn't the case: all gods are
not Chaos gods in disguise ! All gods come from realms of Chaos (more simply knows as warp), that is quite different... There is a clear distinction between the Realms of Chaos (the immaterial world) and Chaotic things -such as gods-: every living things and even every material things in the material world are reflected in the warp. Which mean that every man, every dwarf, every elf, every deer, every oak, every mushroom, every rock, every grass is... It obviously doesn't mean that every living things and every material things are Chaotic things.
Gods aren't amalgamation
of warp but amalgamation
of souls in the warp. There again, it is different.
Chaos gods aren't defined by the purpose of being in the warp as everything is reflected in the warp... Chaos gods are defined by being feed from the very chaotic emotions that some (well many... I mean, most) souls in the warp happen to produce, from time to time...
It was so since WFRP1 and WFB3 -since the chaos was a bit defined in Warhammer Fantasy when they decided to expand this universe with Warhammer 40.000 (and this decision to expand the universe of the Warhammer Fantasy world to intergalactic battles root back to the publication of the first Citadel Compidium in 1983!- as you can see with the sources I previously gave, among some other sources). This setting is still stated after that, in later editions of WFB and WFRP.
You're probably right about all this (it's been a while since I read the
Realm of Chaos books to be honest). I think it was toned down a lot in later editions of WFB when they were trying to make it a more independent setting (e.g. various statements that the Warhammer world is not in the 40k galaxy - but even this is something the official source have gone back and forth on over time) even if it had the same Chaos and Elf/Eldar gods as 40k. So, I'm wondering if this has ever been explicitly stated to be the case in books from the more recent editions of WFRP (or WFB for that matter).
Yes, after that Bryan Ansell leaved Games Workshop, the policy on the Warhammer Fantasy World being a tiny but significant planet of the Warhammer 40.000 universe was to keep issuing small hints that it is the case while not making anything explicit about it and avoiding to state it officially nor even to talk about that point.
Karanthir wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 am
Especially:
Capitaneus Fractus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am
Gods aren't amalgamation
of warp but amalgamation
of souls in the warp. There again, it is different.
Is this really how it works for the non-Chaos gods? What about Sigmar? If he 'ascended' to godhood, what does that mean? What about the Dwarf ancestor-gods?
Sigmar, the man, have a soul, like any material things, which is reflected within the Warp. When living in the material world, his soul was strengthened by Imperial men' souls having faith in him. When dying, the faith that Imperial men' souls continued to have in him, not only as a man but as a would-be god, contributed to the apparition, within the warp, of a creature who is Sigmar the god and who certainly was constituted around the soul of Sigmar the man (albeit it isn't necessary).
Karanthir wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 am
Capitaneus Fractus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am
that isn't the case: all gods are
not Chaos gods in disguise ! All gods come from realms of Chaos (more simply knows as warp), that is quite different
Right, that almost certainly was just fan-speculation then (because it's definitely something I've seen discussed). I was wondering if it had an official source, but probably not.
Capitaneus Fractus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am
Divine magic is
not "unrelated to the realm of chaos" as we can see in the WFRP1 and WFB3 source I gave but as we can found in latter source such as WFRP2 ("Sometimes a miracle is blinding for onlookers with Magical Sense, as the appropriate God or perhaps one of his servants appears to manifest in the local Aethyr;"
Tome of Salvation, WFRP2, p. 214. Aethyr being one of the many other name of realms of Chaos).
This is a slightly separate issue. Personally I like the idea that divine magic is somehow related to the winds of magic. My own preference is that there's definitely more to magic than Teclis has told humanity [...] I haven't really figured out my own answer yet, but I feel like Elven High Magic is one way of manipulating the winds of magic (or aethyr/warp/Realm of Chaos if you prefer); divine magic is another way, and there's all sorts of other ways floating around too.
Another of the many parts which quite explicitly show that "divine magic" allegedly being "unrelated to the realm of chaos" certainly isn't "establishes fairly thoroughly" -quite the contrary- is
Realms of Sorcery, WFRP2, p. 15-16, which is summarized by this notice: "The GM should bear in mind that [no good citizen of the Empire] would associate the Realm of Chaos or the hells of the Dark Gods with the Divine Realms of the Empire's more wholesome Gods [...] Few would think that good Gods and bad Gods come into existence and reside in the same metaphysical plane" and "Few [...] identify the Divine Realms or Morr's Limbo as being the same place, state, or thing as the Aethyr that the Empire's magisters sometime refears to as the source of their power".
Karanthir wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 am otherwise how do you explain magic than comes from elsewhere than the eight winds (e.g. hedge magic and Kislevite ice magic, or even Dwarf runic magic)?
There is an hint in "Earthbound Magic",
Realms of Sorcery, WFRP2, p. 39: "Whatever their patterns of dispersal, the Winds of Magic permeate and are absorbed into almost everything in the world with which they come into contact [...] Living tissue can absorb considerable amounts of Aethyric energy, while other materials (sometimes lead, others obsidian) are magical nulls. So with this exception, almost everything that the Winds of Magic touch is saturated by their power to some degree or another, creating an ambient hum of magic everywhere in the Old World [...] Nature itself is warped and changed and the very physical laws that govern reality begin to break down."
For me, this part explain non teclitian Elementalism, Alchemy and magic runes that we had up to WFRP1 and WFB3, hence that we should keep in WFRP4.
The history of magic is that before the collapse of Warp Gates, only psykers (about 1% of the population IIRC) were able to take profit of the warp to influence the material world. With the collapse of those Warp Gates -certainly triggered with the birth of Slaanesh from Eldars' souls- the warp started to flow within Warhammer Fantasy material world. It was the beginning of a broader hedge wizardry. An empiric and instinctive wizardry.
Then did appeared Elementalism, as a more structured -albeit still empirical- magical ideology, which proved being way superior to hedge wizardry (as is stated in
Realms of Sorcery, WFRP1). Perhaps that Elementalism was learned from Dwarves whose main magical art, runes, are quite elementalistic too and who had a great cultural influence on the Empire.
Elementalism (and Alchemy which seem quite obviously to be an elemental practice too) might hence drag their magic powers from elements saturated by warp dust. Or, to say it in another way, they use warp whose concentration is reduced by being mixed with material things. What elementalists and alchemists call water, earth, air and fire are probably liquid, solid, gas and plasma state of matter. If so, Kislevite Ice Magic might just be a kind of elementalism in very cold places (ice and snow being frozen solids), albeit Kislevite Ice Magic might also being a divine magic as the title "shaman" of its sorcerers might imply.
So the difference between teclitian sorcerers and non-teclitian elementalists and alchemists might simply be that teclitians sorcerers are able to use pure and refined warp (or, more exactly to use one of the eight separate aspects of pure warp) while non-teclitian elementalists and alchemists use low concentration brut warp (or, more exactly, a mix of various aspects of warp who are "polluted" with the matter it saturate).
There was a novel in the
Apocryphia Now, WFRP1, which associated those elemental matters with Chaos. It indeed is quite coherent to have warp, or aether, as a
quintessence (literally, in French, "fifth matter"). But this brut warp is very close to dhar, if not simply being dhar... Non teclitian alchemists and elementalists pursuing the research of the
quintessence might simply end being dark magic sorcerers... That is what would be an elementalists who specialised himself in chaos immater after all...
Azurs bring to the Old World -and more specifically to the Empire- victory over Chaos Forces during the Great War against the Chaos and the teclitian teaching of wizardry. By ensuring using only one aspect of the warp, teclitian wizardry establish a safeguard which we understand why it was favoured over rustic and even traditional magical arts by the Empire.
Still, there is room for non-teclitian elementalists and alchemists in Warhammer Fantasy!