Comparison with Zweihander

The enemy lurks in shadows
PencilBoy99
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Can anyone with experience of both comment? They both seem cool, and Zweihander is larger than WFRP 4e.
Graak
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Friendly reminder: Larger is not better.

By this I don't mean that wfrp4th is good.

I dislike them both for different reasons. Regarding 4th edition a quick journey into this forum will tell you the goods and the (far too many IMO) cons of 4th ed.

Regarding Zweihander (without entering in the whole shilling spamming advertising strategy of the author)... Well, that game is WFRP 2nd edition covered (I would say submerged) by strata and strata of unnecessary rules bloat. There are good things taken from Eclipse Phase d100 system (critical on doubles etc), but apart from that I really did not fall in love with it. I had a particular issue too: the page design felt wall-of-text-ish and reading on was a real pain to me. YMMV.

Edit: disclaimer: I didn't tried any of those in actual gameplay. I've read them both and tried a few whiteroom combat tests. So, make what you want of this post if you don't feel it helps. This is my (short) experience.
mormegil
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It depends what you want your playstyle to be.

Zweihander is more generic and can apply to any fantasy world.

Warhammer 4 is dedicated to WFRP universe. So if you want the best feel in this universe go with the second.

I am on the minority though, that I find the rules the best from previous editions, so maybe I am biased.
Graak
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mormegil wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:44 am

Zweihander is more generic and can apply to any fantasy world.
I keep reading this in different forums. I'm not sure how generic it is in truth. Take religion and magic chapters: it's to every extent WFRP stuff, just renamed. The original wfrp sources are easily recognizable for every god and spell.

Calling Zweihander generic would be like saying that Wfrp is generic if you change the name of what defines WFRP. Zwei' in a nutshell is like "hey I'm not wfrp... Wink wink... But you can play wfrp with me... Wink wink"

Edit: or as others have described it "it's wfrp with the serial number filed off".
mormegil
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Graak wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:20 am
mormegil wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:44 am

Zweihander is more generic and can apply to any fantasy world.
I keep reading this in different forums. I'm not sure how generic it is in truth. Take religion and magic chapters: it's to every extent WFRP stuff, just renamed. The original wfrp sources are easily recognizable for every god and spell.

Calling Zweihander generic would be like saying that Wfrp is generic if you change the name of what defines WFRP. Zwei' in a nutshell is like "hey I'm not wfrp... Wink wink... But you can play wfrp with me... Wink wink"

Edit: or as others have described it "it's wfrp with the serial number filed off".
Ok let me refrain it.

Zweihander is a theft, that tries to hide itself through legal ways on the basis I am generic.

This alone should tell everyone, stay away.
Graak
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mormegil wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:11 am
Ok let me refrain it.

Zweihander is a theft, that tries to hide itself through legal ways on the basis I am generic.

This alone should tell everyone, stay away.

Not quite sure if you’re sarcastic or serious…
...and not sure if this is what OP is looking for..

Anyhow....theft or not is a matter of lawyers and legal justice to assess.

The gap between THEFT and “LOVE-LETTER” is a nasty one: hic sunt laywers!

Sure is that all things considered and also the registration of this domain www.warhammerfantasyroleplay.com redirecting to Zwei’,…yeah it SEEMS like a theft to me. (Oh, I’ve just discovered the redirection has been moved from Zwei’ website to its Twitch page, curious).

But I’m not sure this is a topic to discuss that and if the OP is interested in discussing about Zwei’ under a “morality” light tho.

Just to be clear, I’ve pointed out that Zwei’ is WFRP with the copyrighted material scrapped off because I wouldn’t define it as “generic” the way it has been built: let’s skim Spells and Religion chapters and tell me how much there isn’t “inspired” -euphemism- by WFRP, I’m sure at the time I’ve recognized 80-90% of spells and gods like pure rip-off from spells and gods from WFRP at an eye-glance …but maybe I’m among the few nerds to know WFRP spells by heart and to see that the rip-off is so noticeable.

So…your judgement! It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve read “Who cares?!” or “F*** GW!” and “Let us play what we want with any system” comments in response to this matter, I’m not surprised by anything at this point (even by ENNIEs) …and frankly am not that interested in talking about this again.


Returning in topic: how does it play? Excessively crunchy and rule-bloated for my taste (and consider I used to play crunchy games like FFG 40K line).
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totsuzenheni
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It's not like Warhammer is without its influences. File off the copyrighted material from any one part of Warhammer and you might be hard pressed to say if Warhammer were the primary influence, or if Warhammer's infuences were the primary influence.
Graak
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totsuzenheni wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:19 am
It's not like Warhammer is without its influences. File off the copyrighted material from any one part of Warhammer and you might be hard pressed to say if Warhammer were the primary influence, or if Warhammer's infuences were the primary influence.
Do you really want me to re-open that chapter and make a 1:1 comparison on every single god with wh lore and for every single spell too? ;)
Then we can discuss on the definition of "influence"... :P
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totsuzenheni
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Graak wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:14 pm
totsuzenheni wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:19 am
It's not like Warhammer is without its influences. File off the copyrighted material from any one part of Warhammer and you might be hard pressed to say if Warhammer were the primary influence, or if Warhammer's infuences were the primary influence.
Do you really want me to re-open that chapter and make a 1:1 comparison on every single god with wh lore and for every single spell too? ;)
Then we can discuss on the definition of "influence"... :P
No, that won't be necessary. I'm not making a case one way or the other for what were the primary influence(s) in Zweihander, only that if it's primary influence is Warhammer then it's getting them second, or even third or fourth hand.
CapnZapp
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Obviously the game is Warhammer with the serial numbers filed off.

But calling it "theft" is ignorant and incorrect.

The game has been published by a legitimate publisher; do you seriously think they would have gone ahead if they weren't confident they could hold off Games Workshop's attack lawyers?

The part where the serial numbers were filed off should have been your clue to the difference between "inspired by" and "stolen from".
mormegil
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CapnZapp wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:04 am
Obviously the game is Warhammer with the serial numbers filed off.

But calling it "theft" is ignorant and incorrect.

The game has been published by a legitimate publisher; do you seriously think they would have gone ahead if they weren't confident they could hold off Games Workshop's attack lawyers?

The part where the serial numbers were filed off should have been your clue to the difference between "inspired by" and "stolen from".
The easiest thing today is to legalise theft.
Capitaneus Fractus
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Calling it "theft" seem totally stupid: intellectual property is, by definition, immaterial and obviously one can only steal, by definition, material things.
Hence, intellectual property cannot be stolen... it might, however, be counterfeited, which is a very different thing.
Veniam, Duelli Malleum, phantasticum ludum personae uidebo, in fera terra periculosorum aduenturorum ludebam.
Jadrax
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It's not like the Warhammer universe is really that original to begin with. It's packed to the brim with other works with the serial numbers were filed off.
Graak
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mormegil wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:06 am

The easiest thing today is to legalise theft.
I'm not sure it's the best way to put the matter. I would say though that in modern days and with certain immaterial matter (no pun intended) is hard and harder to demonstrate "theft" or mischievous use of intellectual property.
You sell ThatName books? I could register ThatName.com domain that sends people to my NotThatName product... And you know what? You are the fool that hasn't registered all the possible domains tied to your product beforehand. That's how it goes....

Taking the whole gods, magical lores and spells details and readapt them under your name with your mechanics is not something I would define "inspiration" in my country... But who knows, maybe native English speakers or American liberals have a lower sensibility concerning certain matters... (not sarcastic!).
To this add the "websitewiththenameoftherpgImnottakingfrom" registration that redirect to your product.
It surely doesn't seem "clean" to me, "inspiration" seems a quite permissive adjective.

Havind said that if the game is good you're free to go for it!
I'm surely not telling others to not playing it because of "oh poor GW": dear "poor GW" has a shitty history of legal bashing fans' heads and also bullying innocents (anyone remembers the alleged "space marine" copyright infringement attempt against a scifi ebook that had nothing to do with the 40k?). That shit leaves a stain and I bet GW is trying hard to rebuild its reputation under the new management.

The fact that lawyers didn't intervene does not always mean that the offense was not committed. Money, required time, possible reputation backlash and several other reasons we are not meant to comprehend are always factors on the table of a big company lawyers, in particular if starting from a flawed position (several things in GW lore were not trademarked or trademarkable and also the naive lack of internet domain preventive registration).
So without any "official decision" on the fact all we have left is our personal opinion. Cheers! :)
Graak
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Jadrax wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:20 pm
It's not like the Warhammer universe is really that original to begin with. It's packed to the brim with other works with the serial numbers were filed off.
That seems more like "inspiration" to me: multiple sources, mash-up result with several new elements.
One source with changed names and plainly recognizable characteristic elements is a bit more opaque, alway IMHO. Oh, and a street sign with "Guinness beer" indication that instead leads to a notGuinnessStout brewery. :D
I have no doubt that Zwei'case would constitute an amazing study-case in IP legal matters in the internet age! :mrgreen:
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Chuck
Power Behind the Throne
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Ok, let’s try to keep the tone light and friendly. I’d like to think of this forum as somewhere to have nice, calm discussions about the game(s) we enjoy.

Please keep it that way?
Karanthir
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For all the people claiming that Warhammer/GW is "just inspiration" and Zweihander is "theft", bear in mind that Michael Moorcock invented the Chaos Star and has never received a penny from GW (or any of the many, many others who have used it). They didn't just "file the numbers off", they literally took his symbol of Chaos and used it for Chaos in their own setting. Not saying it's necessarily "theft", but it's certainly more blatant than the gods and magic in Zweihander.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos

See also the quote from Moorcock about halfway through this blogpost: https://awesomeliesblog.wordpress.com/2 ... -of-chaos/
Zisse
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I never read the Zweihänder books. What are the gods called therein? Ulroc, Sagmir?

Also, wasn't Zweihänder developed in the time, where there was 3E only? I had the uneducated understanding that it was done, because there was no hope for WFRP to be continued in the spirit of 1E and 2E. That would explain a lot, even though it does not matter in the theft/inspiration discussion.
Karanthir
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The gods in Zweihander don't have names as such. They have titles instead. So not-Sigmar is The God Emperor, not-Ulric is The Winter King, not-Shallya is The Martyr, etc. I presume they are supposed to represent 'universal concepts' to which you can add your own names for your setting.

My understanding (which might also be wrong) is that Daniel Fox was originally part of the team working on 4e, but left at an early stage due to creative differences.
Graak
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IIRC my memories from Baldur’s Gate D&D videogame tell me that chaos star was also used there for some spell, not sure if tied to Chaos or to a simple “confusion” effect of some spell.

WIKI tells us this:

“The symbol's first appearance in a commercial role-playing game (RPG) was in TSR's Dungeons & Dragons supplement, Deities & Demigods[2] which included the gods, monsters, and heroes from Moorcock's Elric books as one of 17 mythological and fictional "pantheons". Copyright problems led to its omission from later editions.[citation needed]”

For what matters is my humble (and useless) opinion that YES, this would qualify as “theft” (“illicit use” or choose the word you like most, translating in English doesn’t help me in this I’m afraid). Some companies decide to pursue the fact, others don’t (as I’ve said: money+time cost, resources invest on outcome returned ratio –costs/benefits- or simply a philosophy like “let’s don’t waste time on what others do and let’s concentrate on produce and selling better stuff” are factors on the table of the companies).

Regarding Zwei’ in particular you guys really want me to dig up that PDF and make a comparison chart don’t you? :P
I’m really not sure if this is worth though, I’m not inclined to try to demonstrate any point.
Just being puzzled by the fact that you can:
- practically take every gods lore, describing the same lore with your own words and your own new names…;
- same with the 8 magic lores and signature spells
- writing a sign pointing to your product using the name of the RPGyouarenottakingfrom
(And I even consider things like not-skaven, not-warpstone being minor things…)
And this all can be seen al lecit and perfectly normal by people.
Well I guess I’ll have to culturally conform to the new standard :D

But now, I think the OP would benefit more from comments regarding the game mechanics and how-it-plays from people who actually tried it instead of discussing on what constitute illecit use or not.



:!: MANDATORY EDIT: my mistake: before this discussione slept towards users' opinions on "ethical" problems I HAD a point and it was: "being generic is not a selling point for Zwei' because the way is built is not more generic than taking WFRP and making as if the setting does not exist"


EDIT2 (to avoid making another post):
Karanthir wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:15 am
The gods in Zweihander don't have names as such. They have titles instead. So not-Sigmar is The God Emperor, not-Ulric is The Winter King, not-Shallya is The Martyr, etc. I presume they are supposed to represent 'universal concepts' to which you can add your own names for your setting.

My understanding (which might also be wrong) is that Daniel Fox was originally part of the team working on 4e, but left at an early stage due to creative differences.
Thanks Karanthir!
The idea I had about Fox was that he tried to make his wfrp-homemade-clone when FFG was no more supporting the line and maybe he tried to acquire license from GW. C7 did it instead and I've always thought (from comments in some forum or blog I can't recall) that he tried to slip in C7 to propose his product there but they basically declined. So everyone parted their way. This is a personal reconstruction though, don't take it too seriously.
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