Stunning and Knockout

Cubicle 7 // 2018
Post Reply
User avatar
Jackdays
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:29 am
Contact:

This idea started originally from Capnzapp topic about Strike to Stun Talent.

I didn't like WFRP4 Stun rules, so I decided to add something. I think the possibility to Stun someone should be available to everyone, not just Pummel quality (which are pretty limited in weapons). It's just how easy (or not easy) it would be. And with Size Levels now, you can easily rule, that you cannot Stun larger creatures for example. Think professional boxer, like Pit Fighter. Pit Fighter gets Brawling, but he cannot Strike to Stun (if you even can StS with Brawling weapons). It just sounds weird.

Combat: Knockout (Optional Rule)
Instead of inflicting normal damage with an unarmed attack, you can attempt to Knockout your opponent. You must declare this is your intent before rolling to hit your opponent. You must hit opponents Head (-20 to hit head or aim one round to reduce this penalty). If you win the Opposed Test, your opponent gains the Stunned Condition. Use following rules:
- If you hit Head, attempt an Opposed Strength/Endurance test against the struck opponent. If you have Pummel weapon, this test gains a +2 SL bonus. Each Armour AP in Head gives opponent a +1 SL to test.
- Damage of this attack is always just +SB+0, but opponent is Stunned.
- You cannot Knockout bigger Size Level creatures.
- With Strike to Stun Talent you do not need to use aim to get the -20 penalty away, when tryin to hit the Head. This includes also Brawling (Unarmed).
- With Iron Jaw Talent your opponent gets extra +2 SL to test.
- Critical Hit causes Unconscious condition.
Last edited by Jackdays on Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
Welcome to grim and perilous Norsca. Welcome to Kalevala Hammer.

kalevalahammer@gmail.com
www.kalevalahammer.com
CapnZapp
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:15 am
Location: Norsca

Feedback: two things make me wonder if this isn't a 2E rule.
1) The Aim action? You can attack using your action and take -20 to the roll to do a called shot. Perhaps that's what you meant? (The 2e Aim was a half action that gave a general +10 bonus. Sure it could be useful to offset the head shot penalty, but hardly mandatory)
2) "Get the Stunned condition" - in 4E you can have multiple Stunned conditions, and in fact, to keep a burly fighter out, you want as many as you can get. The rule needs to explain how you can apply multiple Stunned's in a single action.
User avatar
Jackdays
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:29 am
Contact:

CapnZapp wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:59 am
Feedback: two things make me wonder if this isn't a 2E rule.
1) The Aim action? You can attack using your action and take -20 to the roll to do a called shot. Perhaps that's what you meant? (The 2e Aim was a half action that gave a general +10 bonus. Sure it could be useful to offset the head shot penalty, but hardly mandatory)
2) "Get the Stunned condition" - in 4E you can have multiple Stunned conditions, and in fact, to keep a burly fighter out, you want as many as you can get. The rule needs to explain how you can apply multiple Stunned's in a single action.
1) You are right. Wording I used is little "WFRP2-style". I changed the description little. The idea is still same: that -20 penalty, and that you can aim to reduce that. Or make the use of StS Talent 8-)

2) I wasn't sure should the Knockout action just cause one Stunned conditions on each hit. OR should it cause multiple Stunned conditions based on success (later sounded pretty powerful, but then again - it's not easy to succeed)? And this way Iron Jaw Talent could be used as it is.
Welcome to grim and perilous Norsca. Welcome to Kalevala Hammer.

kalevalahammer@gmail.com
www.kalevalahammer.com
Jericho
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:26 pm

Couldn't you simply give the Pummel quality to fists when trained in Brawling?
User avatar
Jackdays
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:29 am
Contact:

Jericho wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:33 pm
Couldn't you simply give the Pummel quality to fists when trained in Brawling?
Yes. That would cover trained hand to hand fighters. Otherwise same rules.

But, should the possibility to Stun still be available to everyone? That is partly the idea of this rule, mostly it is to make stunning possible in brawling.
Welcome to grim and perilous Norsca. Welcome to Kalevala Hammer.

kalevalahammer@gmail.com
www.kalevalahammer.com
Jericho
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:26 pm

It already is. Crits to the head very often cause Stunned or Unconscious conditions. An untrained brawler would make KO by accident (ie a Crit). Seems realistic to me.
User avatar
Jackdays
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:29 am
Contact:

Jericho wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:24 pm
It already is. Crits to the head very often cause Stunned or Unconscious conditions. An untrained brawler would make KO by accident (ie a Crit). Seems realistic to me.
True, but when do you score Critical? What if you just want to knock someone down, not really hack poor person to pieces. In this situation you could use "Pulling Your Blows" rule (not using crits) and this rule.
Welcome to grim and perilous Norsca. Welcome to Kalevala Hammer.

kalevalahammer@gmail.com
www.kalevalahammer.com
CapnZapp
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:15 am
Location: Norsca

It appears you want to implement the knocked out trope.

The problem isn't that it's unrealistic. The problem is that anything that short-circuits the hit point buffer (in games that have them) needs to be well gated and restricted, or everyone will do it.

The end analysis is very likely that untrained fighters cannot and should not be given access to something like this.

Not unless you're restricting its use to special circumstances. You could have a "bar brawl" mode, where you repurpose the combat rules to better model the bar-room brawl, that doesn't end with everyone dead or dying.

(Just like you could have a "magic duel" mode which lets wizards make attacks, parries, counters without being shackled to the regular initiative system.)
User avatar
totsuzenheni
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:38 pm

As the article that CapnZapp links to above illustrates, and from what i've heard and read on the subject, if you're aiming to be realistic then deliberately 'knocking someone out' takes quite a lot of skill, and even then has somewhat random consequences. If the 'knockout' lasts for more than a few seconds then the consequences are very likely to be other 'critical hits' ( in WFRP terms ), and if someone is determined to 'knock someone else out' for an extended period of time with any method that is likely to work then there is no way to do so without almost certainly causing serious and permanant damage.
CapnZapp
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:15 am
Location: Norsca

Again, I would like to clarify that I focus on gameplay balance, not realism.

My focus is to avoid a ruleset where players determine that it is statistically better for them to stop using the regular combat system, and instead winning their fights using some sort of special maneuvre.

I haven't done any detailed analysis. I just have a hunch that attacks that cause the Stunned condition must be gated behind quite strict requirements, and that it cannot be offered to "untrained" characters.

For pure cold mathematical reasons, that is. If your characters are willing to ignore the numbers, and are prepared to only use "knock-out punches" when it makes narrative sense, then you should of course feel free to go ahead.

But for a general rule (that aims for the same kind of general acceptance the rulebook rules are meant for) I believe numbers must be taken into account. Not every player wants to act against their best interests when their life is on the line.

Good luck with your game
User avatar
Jackdays
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:29 am
Contact:

Thank you all for interesting points.

In these types of games it's usually better not to go too realistic - that's part of the fun too, that you can do certain things. Like make that classical karate hit to the neck and knock somebody down 8-) But, games balance is important. I'm still not sure is my system really mechanically too powerful, should probably be playtested more. But, that possibility is there.

If we forget the rule itself and focus then just to "professionals". Like professional hand to hand fighter. Would then Jerichos idea work? If you have trained Brawling, then you get Pummel to Unarmed attacks.
Welcome to grim and perilous Norsca. Welcome to Kalevala Hammer.

kalevalahammer@gmail.com
www.kalevalahammer.com
Post Reply