Enemy Within Updates (plus other stuff)

The enemy lurks in shadows
Theo
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The odd thing is that Power Behind the Throne makes several references to Middenland and the duchy of Middenheim being separate entities, and Nordland rather than Middenland being ruled by Middenheim in 2512 (as well as heavy foreshadowing about Nordland separatists). Either way, it's a minor quibble for me.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:55 am
The odd thing is that Power Behind the Throne makes several references to Middenland and the duchy of Middenheim being separate entities, and Nordland rather than Middenland being ruled by Middenheim in 2512 (as well as heavy foreshadowing about Nordland separatists).
That could all be a matter of material copied and pasted from first edition material though.
Theo
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totsuzenheni wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:41 am
Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:55 am
The odd thing is that Power Behind the Throne makes several references to Middenland and the duchy of Middenheim being separate entities, and Nordland rather than Middenland being ruled by Middenheim in 2512 (as well as heavy foreshadowing about Nordland separatists).
That could all be a matter of material copied and pasted from first edition material though.
I don't think so. The Nordland separatism thing is pretty obviously setting up the 2E-and-onward provinces map. And there's some stuff about the Nikse family in the new Middenheim book I don't recognize from before either (not that I've read all the old stuff, of course).
dry_erase
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Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:04 am
My only gripe is the idea – obviously tempting thought it was – to make Nastassia and Brünhilde each other’s nemesis/archenemy. It’s another instance of the bad Warhammer habit of making everything about the cool NPCs.
That was my doing. I wanted to give Nastassia a flaw, because otherwise she's at risk of becoming little more than a plot device to dole out answers for slow moving players. I thought her spotting the actions of Brunhilde could also give the party some hints about Wasmeier's agent on top of the few in the existing adventure text.

But Brunhilde does not see Nastassia as a nemesis - she has no idea that she exists.
Theo
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dry_erase wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:11 am
Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:04 am
My only gripe is the idea – obviously tempting thought it was – to make Nastassia and Brünhilde each other’s nemesis/archenemy. It’s another instance of the bad Warhammer habit of making everything about the cool NPCs.
That was my doing. I wanted to give Nastassia a flaw, because otherwise she's at risk of becoming little more than a plot device to dole out answers for slow moving players. I thought her spotting the actions of Brunhilde could also give the party some hints about Wasmeier's agent on top of the few in the existing adventure text.

But Brunhilde does not see Nastassia as a nemesis - she has no idea that she exists.
Fair enough. :) I might have overinterpreted that a bit, seeing as said tendency is one of my pet peeves. Apologies if I misrepresented things.

Who am I speaking to, btw?
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:13 am
totsuzenheni wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:41 am
Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:55 am
The odd thing is that Power Behind the Throne makes several references to Middenland and the duchy of Middenheim being separate entities, and Nordland rather than Middenland being ruled by Middenheim in 2512 (as well as heavy foreshadowing about Nordland separatists).
That could all be a matter of material copied and pasted from first edition material though.
I don't think so. The Nordland separatism thing is pretty obviously setting up the 2E-and-onward provinces map. And there's some stuff about the Nikse family in the new Middenheim book I don't recognize from before either (not that I've read all the old stuff, of course).
That's good to read. (I should have phrased my previous post as a question. I don't have the Power Behind The Throne Companion myself.)
dry_erase
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Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:13 am
dry_erase wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:11 am
Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:04 am
My only gripe is the idea – obviously tempting thought it was – to make Nastassia and Brünhilde each other’s nemesis/archenemy. It’s another instance of the bad Warhammer habit of making everything about the cool NPCs.
That was my doing. I wanted to give Nastassia a flaw, because otherwise she's at risk of becoming little more than a plot device to dole out answers for slow moving players. I thought her spotting the actions of Brunhilde could also give the party some hints about Wasmeier's agent on top of the few in the existing adventure text.

But Brunhilde does not see Nastassia as a nemesis - she has no idea that she exists.
Fair enough. :) I might have overinterpreted that a bit, seeing as said tendency is one of my pet peeves. Apologies if I misrepresented things.
I completely get your point - there's always a risk with Warhammer that writers get so wrapped up in creating interesting NPCs that they forget about GMs and players discovering or interacting with the stuff that makes them interesting.
Who am I speaking to, btw?
Well, I'm writing as Simon Wileman.
Theo
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dry_erase wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:45 am
I completely get your point - there's always a risk with Warhammer that writers get so wrapped up in creating interesting NPCs that they forget about GMs and players discovering or interacting with the stuff that makes them interesting.
It's more of an issue when you're dealing with the powerful NPCs famous from the wargame, I think. Of course, in the wargame, these powerful NPCs are more or less player characters - you're controlling them as a player if you have them in your army.

dry_erase wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:45 am
Well, I'm writing as Simon Wileman.
Good enough for me. :) I should state again that I very much enjoyed the extended writeups of Brünhilde and Nastassia. The NPCs chapter, along with the expanded garden party, was the highlight of the book for me.
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Karanthir
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I'm intrigued by the Graf's Garden Party. Does it bear any similarities to the similarly named event in WFRP3's The Enemy Within?
dry_erase
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Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:21 pm
It's more of an issue when you're dealing with the powerful NPCs famous from the wargame, I think. Of course, in the wargame, these powerful NPCs are more or less player characters - you're controlling them as a player if you have them in your army.
I'd agree - it's a challenge to take someone like the Grand Theogonist or even Graf Boris and make them more than just "very powerful person who overwhelms the scene and has a cool ongoing narrative which you'll probably never see". I think PBTT does that well with the latter, because (as we know) the wargame introduced him as a character later.

I think my preference is for those kinds of character to work in one of three ways.

They can work as a celebrity cameo, appearing briefly for entertainment purposes. This assumes your players know who they are, of course!

They can work if you show their human side - the flaws that you won't see in the wargame (see: Boris) or the reality behind the "great warrior". This is probably the richest territory for WFRP.

If used sparingly, they can also work as a deus ex machina - providing it doesn't take too much agency from the players.

Interesting topic - what do others think?
Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:21 pm
I should state again that I very much enjoyed the extended writeups of Brünhilde and Nastassia. The NPCs chapter, along with the expanded garden party, was the highlight of the book for me.
Thanks - when I heard about the plan to expand the NPC profiles I thought it was a great idea. I've always liked Nastassia and Brunhilde, so I was very keen to do a bit more with them. And making Brunhilde a native Bergsburger was fun too... :)

The Garden Party is fantastic - and nothing to do with me. It's the first time we've really seen those characters' personalities play out in 'real time'. Even if a GM decides not to use this much detail, they should read it for inspiration on how to play some of the PBTT NPCs.
FasterThanJesus
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Karanthir wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:39 am
I'm intrigued by the Graf's Garden Party. Does it bear any similarities to the similarly named event in WFRP3's The Enemy Within?
Are you referring to A Day at the Menagerie?
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Karanthir
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FasterThanJesus wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:22 pm
Are you referring to A Day at the Menagerie?
Ah, yes, that's the one. For some reason in my head I thought it was called the Graf's Garden Party, but I must be getting confused. Assuming now that it doesn't bear any resemblance. :?
Theo
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Karanthir wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:39 am
I'm intrigued by the Graf's Garden Party. Does it bear any similarities to the similarly named event in WFRP3's The Enemy Within?
Well, the format is somewhat similar, there are a number of NPCs bickering with each other, and there's a hedge maze (but no escaped monsters hiding in it this time). I don't think there's any heavier borrowing of specific content from the 3E adventure here.
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Karanthir
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Theo wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:36 am
Well, the format is somewhat similar, there are a number of NPCs bickering with each other, and there's a hedge maze (but no escaped monsters hiding in it this time). I don't think there's any heavier borrowing of specific content from the 3E adventure here.
Interesting to know. Thanks!
Visitor Q
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Whilst we are on the subject of Power Behind the Throne what does the Weapon Quality Peak Leveller for the Middenland Runefang within Boris Todbringers trappings do?

For the life of me I can't find the rules for the Runefangs in any 4th edition book (I know porting the Runefang rules over from 1st edition/WFB would be pretty straight foward but just for completeness).
FasterThanJesus
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I've no idea. I even used my new Caliber search tool to look through all my WFRP stuff I have soft copies of and I didn't bring anything up.
dry_erase
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Visitor Q wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:34 pm
Whilst we are on the subject of Power Behind the Throne what does the Weapon Quality Peak Leveller for the Middenland Runefang within Boris Todbringers trappings do?

For the life of me I can't find the rules for the Runefangs in any 4th edition book (I know porting the Runefang rules over from 1st edition/WFB would be pretty straight foward but just for completeness).
I *think* it's the name of the weapon rather than a quality - but I'm guessing here. It doesn't correspond to the name of the Middenland Runefang ('Legbiter'), but some runefangs seem to have more than one name.

That would certainly make more sense than a Weapon Quality which 'levels peaks'... unless it's got some sort of graphic equaliser enchantment.
Visitor Q
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I thought that it meant level in the sense of 'to demolish or raze'. So literally mountain destroyer which admittedly is a little exaggerated for what the Runefang can do but is quite a badass sounding name for a weapon quality of that magnitude.

Also if it ignores Armour and TB as I guess it would peak leveller might also be a nice play on words in the sense of making opponents equal.
FasterThanJesus
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Just received the DoTR CE books in the post. Very nice and meets the same standards as the first book. I am, however, a little disappointed in a lack of a large map. Castle Wittgenstein has both an annotated version in the middle of the book for the GM and unannotated version on the cover inlay but I really feel they missed a trick in not providing at least an A4 copy of the latter with the other handouts. A nice A2 hex map of the Empire would have been nice, too, but I'm guessing if such a thing is ever made, it would probably be a separate purchase.
FasterThanJesus
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The latest dev diaries are out after a few months absence and we appear to have two at once. These cover The Horned Rat. Graeme Davis confirms the story of The Horned Rat being the original plan for part 5 of TEW with plot surrounding Morrsleib either mining for warpstone or crashing the moon. It does not confirm this is the plot for the 4th edition adventure though.

The artwork is previewed for the covers and persists with using the starter set characters. The Horned Rat cover has a backdrop of a volcano with green tinted lava/smoke and morrsleib appears to be disolving away.

The CE covers are The Tower (a bell tower) and The Keep, which is surrounded by skaven sigils and insects with a nurgle sigil on the front. Some blurb describes it:

"Ancient tales speak of a tower built by Dwarf skill and Human hubris. It was to be a temple to the many gods they
worshipped. In rising it, however, the name of another God was added to its litanies of worship, and the tolling of a
great bell signalled doom to all who dwelt in its shadow. The semi-mythical tower is illustrated here, along with the
many vermin that are inexplicably associated with it.
The Keep is a mountain fastness, of unknown provenance but layered and complex history. Of all who dwelt within
it, however, the worse now make it their home. It is best avoided, but some have little choice, and rivers of blood will
be split before all is said and done."

There is also some cutting room floor additions in there with a few spells and skaven items.

Although there is not a lot to go on, I'm getting the vibe of something more akin to a classic adventure than the political intrigue in PBtT but we'll obviously have to wait and see.
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