Berserk Charge and Strike Mighty Blow

The enemy lurks in shadows
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Clint
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:12 pm

Hey ya'll, hope you're doing great!

I love the new book, system and rules, and that here is so much info crammed into this tiny 351 paged book. But it also makes some of the descriptions rather short and open for interpretation. As for example with the two aforementioned talents.

To me, Berserk Charge, wich gives +1 Damage to attacks when you charge, seems like a shittier version of Strike Mighty Blow, which would just give +1 Damage to all attacks, including charges.

Am i reading this wrong, or are the one just plain better than the other?

Best regards :)
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Hyarion
Posts: 260
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:56 am

One is more general purpose, true. But I see nothing that says both don't apply at the same time, to make charge attacks especially devastating. And therein, I think, is why both exist; my $0.02
I hold the glaive of Law against the Earth.
Clint
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:12 pm

That is true. I guess they also offer some extra flavor for play. Thanks for the reply :)
Jericho
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:26 pm

Berzerk Charge also gives you +1SL on your Successful Melee Test when you charge. That means you will win the Opposed roll more often and deal 1 extra Damage due to SLs...
Clint
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:12 pm

I'm pretty sure that you always get 1 advantage when you charge, Berserk Charge or not :)
CapnZapp
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Jericho wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:30 pm Berzerk Charge also gives you +1SL on your Successful Melee Test when you charge. That means you will win the Opposed roll more often and deal 1 extra Damage due to SLs...
This.

Plus to damage is actually much less valuable in 4E, while plus to attacks is very valuable.

There are many talents where the true value hides behind the easy-to-miss "Test:" line.
CapnZapp
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Clint wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:43 am I'm pretty sure that you always get 1 advantage when you charge, Berserk Charge or not :)
You can never have too many Advantage! :)
Clint
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:12 pm

"when you Charge, you gain +1 Damage to all Melee attacks per level in this talent"
It doesn't say anything about advantage.

Now, under the lists of what gives advantage, charging is listed "Charging: charging headlong into battle grants +1 advantage".

Wether you have the talent Berserk Charge or not doesn't impact on whether you gain advantage
CapnZapp
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Clint wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:29 am "when you Charge, you gain +1 Damage to all Melee attacks per level in this talent"
It doesn't say anything about advantage.

Now, under the lists of what gives advantage, charging is listed "Charging: charging headlong into battle grants +1 advantage".

Wether you have the talent Berserk Charge or not doesn't impact on whether you gain advantage
Lets clear out any and all misunderstandings once and for all. :)

You are absolutely correct - the advantage you gain from charging has nothing to do with the Talent.

However, the OP was asking about the general value of the Talent. It is imperative we all understand the importance of the easily-missed line "Test:" for many (but not all) Talents. This is explained in the sidebar on page 132, and yes, it is easy to miss, and no, it is not mentioned anywhere else.

In the case of the Berserk Charge Talent, we have:
Tests: Melee on a Round when you Charge
So, if you have the Talent, in addition to whatever the Talent says it does, it also provides +1 SL on any Test that is successful (which makes you more likely to actually win the opposed test and/or dish out more damage).

If you pay 200 XP to take the Talent a second time, this bonus increases to +2 SL and so on. Just remember that you only gain the bonus on successful Tests. If you fail your Test by -1 SL and your opponent fails by -2 SL, you still win the opposed test (your charge hits for damage), but you don't get the SL bonus from the Talent.

Let's illustrate. Don't feel bad if you got it wrong - calculating the outcome of a combat attack is extremely complicated in 4E (compared to 1/2E, and honestly to many other fantasy rpgs as well).

Example: you have a 45% Melee skill, and two levels of Berserk Charge. You didn't have any advantage before the charge. You have a standard hand weapon of +4 with a standard Strength Bonus of 3.

You roll 49. Since you have advantage, your effective skill is 55 and you succeed. Your SL is 1 plus the 2 from the Talent's Test line = 3.

If the foe gets -1 SL on its parry/dodge, you win and deal your regular 7 plus 4 (for relative SL) plus 2 damage (because the Talent says so) = 13 (before deducting Toughness and Armour).

Yes, this means that the damage bonus is effectively twice what its description says for this particular Talent. First you get a bonus to SL (that ultimately results in more damage) from "Test:", then you get an outright damage bonus from the main description.

The point here is that the main text description of the Talent is arguably the lesser bonus!

(You deal no damage unless you win opposed tests. Bonuses to skill are (much!) more important than bonuses to damage in 4th edition.)
Last edited by CapnZapp on Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
CapnZapp
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PS. If you fail but still win when you charge, you don't get the SL bonus but you do get the damage bonus.

If anyone has questions on that, just ask! :)
Clint
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:12 pm

Ah i can see the misunderstanding :) I just feel it is wrong to say that it gives an extra Succes Level, and not that it deals extra damage. While one does contribute to the other, it's not the same case the other way around. SL is never mentioned in the talent, but +1 Damage is. I know it's nit picking, but I think that's why I got confused by the arguments :)

Thanks for the replies people, they helped a lot!
CapnZapp
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Clint wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:51 am Ah i can see the misunderstanding :) I just feel it is wrong to say that it gives an extra Succes Level, and not that it deals extra damage.
It gives both. So yes, saying it gives SLs but not extra damage would indeed be wrong.
SL is never mentioned in the talent, but +1 Damage is.
But SLs are mentioned by the talent, albeit indirectly.

The Talent contains a Test line. All Test lines are governed by the same rule, as explained in the sidebar in the beginning of the Talents chapter. This rule states that if a Talent contains a Test line, you gain +1 SL per level of talent for the indicated tests on success.

So the talent provides both kinds of bonuses.

Extra SLs when you succeed. Extra damage when you win (meaning when you do hit your opponent). If you both win and succeed you have gained both +1 SL and +1 dmg, which in turn translates to two points of extra damage per level of the talent.

Finally, I reread the thread. Maybe it would help to clarify that "advantage" and "extra success levels" are two completely separate things.
Last edited by CapnZapp on Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
Jadrax
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:19 am

CapnZapp wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:00 amMaybe it would help to clarify that "advantage" and "extra success levels" are two completely separate things.
Certainly that confused me to the point i had to go away and read the rules again.

Also if I could give you a medal for the post explaining this, I would.
Clint
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:12 pm

Aha! I missed that Test description at the beginning of the talent chapter. Probably the first of many, super small but super important details I have missed!

Thanks a lot for clarifying your clarifications, and being persistent, CapnZapp! I makes sense now.

As Jadrax wrote, this is 🏅 worthy commitment :)
Cheers
CapnZapp
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:15 am
Location: Norsca

Thank you!
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