Strong back abd strike to stun

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Mathias4
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2021 5:53 am

Strong back talent gives +1 SL on any opposed strength test. Does this also count on the opposed strength/endurance test when striking to stun?
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Hyarion
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My reading of it leads me to say no. Strong Back applies to Opposed Strength tests which I understand to mean Strength vs Strength, so something like wrestling or tug-of-war or pushing a recalcitrant mule.
The Pummel test is Strength vs Endurance which I would understand to be something else.

I'm thinking my answer is based more on RAI than RAW, but there it is.
I hold the glaive of Law against the Earth.
Mathias4
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2021 5:53 am

Thanks for the reply. I understand you inerpret "any opposed strength" as solely opposed strength/strength test. Perhaps you're right, however, I think this is not clear. E.g. the rulebook opens up for using other skills than strength to oppose in grappling (p. 163, grey box). From your interpretation I read that strong back will not help you in a oppsoed grappling strength/leadership test. Hope to get some comments from more people.
Ayantis
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:31 pm

RAW no.
Opposed Strength Tests are , as Hyarion pointed out, Strength versus Strength Tests, and not Strength versus something else.
This was confirmed by the devs.
Even more , RAI the Stun to Strike rules were supposed to be rewritten before the book hits the stores, but that didn’t happen.
Perhaps Cubicle 7 will clarify these rules in one of the future supplements (maybe in the Up In Arms?!)
Mathias4
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2021 5:53 am

Thanks both of you for making this clear to me. I haven't got other examples right now, but your answers would also imply that e.g opposed melee test is not the same as opposed melee/dodge. Talents and traits regarding opposed melee test, will not count towards opposed melee/dodge? Do you have any comments on this?
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Hyarion
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Absolutely, that would be my reading as well. Opposed Melee tests are for when you are comparing your Melee skill against someone else's Melee skill as in you are using your weapon to parry an incoming attack. Once you are defending yourself with something other than a weapon, then it's no longer an Opposed Melee Test (the implication being "A Melee test opposed by another Melee test") but rather a Melee test opposed by a Dodge test.
I hold the glaive of Law against the Earth.
Llewelyn
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:32 pm

Having played 4th for 2 years now there are so many little issue like this in the game, the lack of coherency in categorization or solid definitions that remain consistent across all their uses is problematic. There are places where it specifically states an Opposed Melee/Melee (Disarm Talent) and others where it just says Opposed Melee Test. So in places where I am using Dodge instead of Melee does it complete negate the action/activity. If someone is using Feint talent and I want to dodge am I not allowed to cause it states specifically /Melee in the Opposed Melee (Fencing) or is this another oversight that wasn't well documented or consistent?

So if I am grappling with someone and they, using the optional grappling with skills, use some skill to oppose my strength test, I don't get to use my strong back? This seems really stupid. With everything else as poorly written, clarified and consistent with other parts of the rules to say that you get a to add strong back only when you are doing a test that is also opposed by strength is just more nonsensical inconsistency.

So since they didn't write Opposed Strength / Strength tests in the book for Strong Back, I would say using the Pummel quality should add Strong Back to the Opposed Strength/ Endurance test.

If you don't let the common sense work within this game, 4th edition collapses under its own weight.
Ayantis
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:31 pm

RAW and RAI confirmed by Andy Law, If the Opposed test is Opposed Melee / Melee , for instance the Disarm Talent, the defender is not allowed to use Dodge or anything else but the Melee Skill to defend/oppose it.
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