The Twin Tailed.

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totsuzenheni
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It occurred to me that i've never, to my recollection, seen mention of the similarity between Tzeentch's twin tailed symbol and Sigmar's twin tailed comet. Has this ever been discussed or used before? Is there any official mention of the similarity? It came to mind because i've just read Phil Gallagher's Introduction to the fourth edition The Enemy Within Enemy In Shadows Companion, entitled 'Creating the Enemy Within' in which Phil mentions being proud of having created the legend of Sigmar, which i take as having been done as part of the creation of The Enemy Within. It occurred to me that this similarity between the two symbols might not be coincidence but have been designed into The Enemy Within campaign.
FasterThanJesus
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Interesting, if slightly conspiratorial, hypothesis there.

In 40K the purpose of the Horus Heresy was to create the perpetual war that provided the emotional capital the gods thrive off. Maybe Sigmar (or more specifically his cult) was a similar construct. Although Sigmar himself may not have been a chaos worshipper of any kind, agents may well have been put in place later to create a deliberate controlled opposition to the machinations of chaos.

However, Mr Occam may suggest it was just a generally pleasing design to the artist.

Also, did you get the latest dev diary? It includes an intro to Mistaken Identity written by Graeme Davis that was pulled based on space. It has a little bit more background on Kastor Lieberung and the Purple Hand.
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totsuzenheni
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I didn't buy into the dev. diary so no, alas, i have not had the opportunity to read Graeme Davis' pulled intro. (This is the first thing i've come across that would tempt me into buying the special edition with the dev. diaries.)

I suspect the razor is likely to cut true in this case, but i'm more than happy to hear conspiracy theories. We are after all possibly dealing with the machinations of the great conspirator. For my part, i put it to the members of this esteemed society that the twin tailed comet did not in fact hail the coming of the first Emperor, but was a sign from the changer of the ways, misunderstood by the simple tribes at the time.
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Gideon
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totsuzenheni wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:27 pm
It occurred to me that i've never, to my recollection, seen mention of the similarity between Tzeentch's twin tailed symbol and Sigmar's twin tailed comet. Has this ever been discussed or used before? Is there any official mention of the similarity? It came to mind because i've just read Phil Gallagher's Introduction to the fourth edition The Enemy Within Enemy In Shadows Companion, entitled 'Creating the Enemy Within' in which Phil mentions being proud of having created the legend of Sigmar, which i take as having been done as part of the creation of The Enemy Within. It occurred to me that this similarity between the two symbols might not be coincidence but have been designed into The Enemy Within campaign.
I don’t think Phil Gallagher or anyone else at GW has commented on a connection. It is certainly the case that both symbols first appeared in print at the same time (in The Enemy Within around November 1986). However, I think they have quite different origins.

Sigmar was created by Phil Gallagher around the second half of 1986. He was inspired by the character Siegfried in Wagner’s Ring cycle. I have also speculated he might have been influenced by Halley’s comet, which passed earth in 1986 and had been seen as a portent in 1066. (Incidentally I believe all comets have two tails, but one is not normally visible.)

Tzeentch goes further back. He first appeared in print in March 1984 in Forces of Fantasy. He was created by Bryan Ansell as part of the Realm of Chaos project. It is possible that Tzeentch’s symbol existed before Sigmar, but was not published, though I have no way to confirm that.

There is another twist. If you read the description of Sigmar in The Enemy Within, a twin-tailed comet is not mentioned as one of his symbols! The text says: “The cult of Sigmar is usually associated with two symbols: a stylised Dwarven Warhammer, and an octagon formed by two superimposed squares.” Nonetheless a twin-tailed comet appears in the illustration of a cleric of Sigmar.

I’d be inclined to say a deliberate connection is unlikely, especially as the symbols do not look that similar to me in The Enemy Within, but it’s possible.

Image
FasterThanJesus
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Gideon wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:35 pm
I don’t think Phil Gallagher or anyone else at GW has commented on a connection. It is certainly the case that both symbols first appeared in print at the same time (in The Enemy Within around November 1986). However, I think they have quite different origins.

Sigmar was created by Phil Gallagher around the second half of 1986. He was inspired by the character Siegfried in Wagner’s Ring cycle. I have also speculated he might have been influenced by Halley’s comet, which passed earth in 1986 and had been seen as a portent in 1066. (Incidentally I believe all comets have two tails, but one is not normally visible.)

Tzeentch goes further back. He first appeared in print in March 1984 in Forces of Fantasy. He was created by Bryan Ansell as part of the Realm of Chaos project. It is possible that Tzeentch’s symbol existed before Sigmar, but was not published, though I have no way to confirm that.

There is another twist. If you read the description of Sigmar in The Enemy Within, a twin-tailed comet is not mentioned as one of his symbols! The text says: “The cult of Sigmar is usually associated with two symbols: a stylised Dwarven Warhammer, and an octagon formed by two superimposed squares.” Nonetheless a twin-tailed comet appears in the illustration of a cleric of Sigmar.

I’d be inclined to say a deliberate connection is unlikely, especially as the symbols do not look that similar to me in The Enemy Within, but it’s possible.

Image
You and your facts. Spoil everything.

They have a dust and gas trail. Who knows how that may react to the warp though?

I am now interested as to when the twin tailed comet symbology first appeared. Maybe WFB 4th ed?
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totsuzenheni
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The plot thickens.

The similarity can be exaggerated or minimised depending on the particulars of how both symbols are drawn, but both symbols are a circle with two 'squiggly lines' emanating away from one half of that circle. I can't remember where i saw it now, but i have seen Tzeentch's symbol done with two flames emanating from it.
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totsuzenheni
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FasterThanJesus wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:46 pm
Gideon wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:35 pm
There is another twist. If you read the description of Sigmar in The Enemy Within, a twin-tailed comet is not mentioned as one of his symbols! The text says: “The cult of Sigmar is usually associated with two symbols: a stylised Dwarven Warhammer, and an octagon formed by two superimposed squares.” Nonetheless a twin-tailed comet appears in the illustration of a cleric of Sigmar.
You and your facts. Spoil everything.

They have a dust and gas trail. Who knows how that may react to the warp though?

I am now interested as to when the twin tailed comet symbology first appeared. Maybe WFB 4th ed?
@FasterThanJesus : Did you miss the part i've highlighted?
FasterThanJesus
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Ah, er, yes.
totsuzenheni wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:35 pm
The plot thickens.

The similarity can be exaggerated or minimised depending on the particulars of how both symbols are drawn, but both symbols are a circle with two 'squiggly lines' emanating away from one half of that circle. I can't remember where i saw it now, but i have seen Tzeentch's symbol done with two flames emanating from it.
I've seen it on some of the Lord of Change miniatures. I even bought a bunch of flamers and horrors in preparation for terrorising the party at the end of SoB should (when) they fail to stop Gideon Quite a few of them have stylised flaming change comets.
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Orin J.
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the comet is a sign of major events in the warhammer world, and we know that the lizardmen and nehekarians used it as a symbol of their gods as well. it's not surprising or terribly damning that the forces of chaos would natrually link it to their own beliefs. i recall there was a snippet in one WFB book that indicated the goblins saw is as a sign from gork (possibly mork, i forget) there was going to be good looting ahead. possibly because they're the ones in the greenskins with necks that can look up.
FasterThanJesus
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Fair point. They're also common in the real world in religion and mythology. Astronomical phenomona do get people's imaginations running. Howeve,r that also means that for a god, or similarly powerful entity, it's a good way of sending a message.

I don't think there's a real link here. However, I'm not averse to the notion it could be made into an interesting plot hook where Tzeentchian cultists are puppeteering the Cult of Sigmar, Just as Planned. Of course, Tzeentchian cults are always playing these games, but the Master of Plots is probably running an elaborate Xanotos gambit pile up.
Knight of the Lady
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One possibility to me is that that the Cult of Sigmar was indeed created as a master plan by some Tzeentch magus, or bunch of magi, and then in the traditional Tzeentchian plotting and counter-plotting tradition it eventually backfired spectacurarly in the face of the Tzeentchian magi taking part in it.

Its not like the plots of Tzeentch cultists are always so damn successful at the end of the day, and so seeing the Cult of Sigmar as a weapon that turned on its makers seems like both ironic and a bit of grim comedy to me.
Braddoc
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Well wasn't Archaron an old Sigmarite Priest who discovered a terrible secret and ran away mad, before ending up in the Chaos Wastes and becomming Archaron?

We never knew wht was the secret after all...
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totsuzenheni
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I did some web searching. There is a history of Archaon here: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Archaon . Note the quote on that page that "Archaon was originally known as Diederick Kastner, a highly devout and zealous Templar of the Twin-Tailed Comet". There is also a relevant webpage on the 'twin tailed comet' on the same website here: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wik ... iled_Comet . Note that the entry for Archaon on 1d4 chan, here: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Archaon, and the webpage for Archaon on the Lexicanum website, here: https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Archaon, both refer to the "Order of the Twin-Tailed Orb" rather than 'Twin-Tailed Comet'.

Clearly i'm not the first to link the twin tailed comet to chaos, though i've not found a link made to Tzeentch's symbol specifically.
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totsuzenheni
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Continuing with the tangent subject of the twin tailed comet/orb as a symbol of chaos, i notice that @gideon has just posted a blog post: TOPOS: SYMBOL OF CHAOS, at the bottom of which is an "Unpublished illustration of Chaos symbols, by Martin McKenna, for The Enemy Within (1986)". One of the symbols in that illustration is the twin tailed comet.
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Orin J.
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totsuzenheni wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:58 pm
Continuing with the tangent subject of the twin tailed comet/orb as a symbol of chaos, i notice that @gideon has just posted a blog post: TOPOS: SYMBOL OF CHAOS, at the bottom of which is an "Unpublished illustration of Chaos symbols, by Martin McKenna, for The Enemy Within (1986)". One of the symbols in that illustration is the twin tailed comet.
"no, that one's not a chaos symbol that's the good guy symbol" is a pretty good reason to leave it unpublished......
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Gideon
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The inaccurate caption in my blog post is down to me. Martin McKenna just called the picture 'Parchment and Symbols'.
Zisse
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Gideon, the article is a great read. Thanks for sharing the results of your research.
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Gideon
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Zisse wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:17 pm
Gideon, the article is a great read. Thanks for sharing the results of your research.
Thanks! I'm glad you liked it.
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hallucyon
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Gideon wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:35 pm
totsuzenheni wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:27 pm
It occurred to me that i've never, to my recollection, seen mention of the similarity between Tzeentch's twin tailed symbol and Sigmar's twin tailed comet. [...]
[...] It is certainly the case that both symbols first appeared in print at the same time (in The Enemy Within around November 1986). [...]

Image
It is an interesting statement. I have always taken for granted that a spellcaster in the picture on page 134 of the first-edition rulebook wears some sort of a brooch shaped into a twin-tailed comet. Actually, I have suspected the illustration shows a cleric of Sigmar.
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totsuzenheni
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hallucyon wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:13 pm
I have always taken for granted that a spellcaster in the picture on page 134 of the first-edition rulebook wears some sort of a brooch shaped into a twin-tailed comet. Actually, I have suspected the illustration shows a cleric of Sigmar.
I'd always seen that as the 'ribbon' (or somesuch) around the spellcaster's neck, but now you mention it...
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