WFRP Social Justice & Representation

For general discussions about WFRP
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skerrigan
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Nope, but if I'm lumped in with him, alt-left it is.
Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:20 am
Milo Yianopolis describes himself almost verbatim as you did, and he identifies as alt-right. I actually assumed you were trying to channel Milo above.
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Herr Arnulfe
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Toby Pilling wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:14 am
I don't think one has to be a right-wing nut job to mock St Greta or the statue-topplers.
What made your Greta parody brilliant was that it illustrated how the far-right latches onto multiple humanitarian issues, lumps them together into a monolithic "left" and defines itself by opposition to them. I mean if you're unironically poking fun at MeToo, BLM and climate advocacy all at the same time, then the joke is ultimately on you.
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skerrigan
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Yes, I've been following the D&D debate a little and have to admit I was surprised Ravenloft getting a rewrite (that ironically has put me off buying the deluxe boxed set they've released). I was surprised that "classic" D&D settings are now considered racist, I only own 1 D&D 5e book (the PHB) as I've been waiting for any Greyhawk, Ravenloft or Mystara stuff.

Amazingly the Vistani are now controversial - the equivalent of the Strigany in Warhammer. Given they're generally a neutral race, if a bit stereotypical, and have existed for about 30 years without being labelled problematic this surprised me. As is a relatively obscure domain, Souragne, which is based on the Southern Gothic genre (voodoo, plantations with zombie workers, swamps etc.). In fact I even saw a tweet where one of C7's designers decried the 5E DM's Guild Souragne content as racist without even reading the book.

Now I agree that Souragne skirts a little close to contemporary pressure points but what is acceptable for my group in the UK might not be to a group in Alabama. Let the market decide, "get woke, go broke" etc.

RPGs are already an inclusive hobby and plurality of thought is an asset. Mudslinging and labelling folk as alt-right, especially when they're just winding you up with some "brilliant" scenario ideas, isn't particularly helpful. 8-)
Toby Pilling wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:14 am
In terms of encouraging a wider demographic range of people to play RPGs, I think that characters such as Lucas from the Stranger Things series on Netflix will do far more good than changing the skin colour of Drow Elves. A lot of changes within games seems to be pandering to the woke crowd - it certainly seems like we lost access to Dave Morris' Nippon sourcebook due to such considerations. Ah well - get woke, go broke.

With regards to WFRP specifically, it has always had a theme of black comedy and a sense of the ridiculous running through it (as opposed to the rather po-faced 40K universe). I don't think one has to be a right-wing nut job to mock St Greta or the statue-topplers. I think there's fun to be had in mocking all political tribes, such as the huge walls the Empire constructs on their northern and southern borders during the End Times:
Emperor: "We'll build a wall of bone on the Southern Border. Sylvania will pay for it. Manfred von Carstein is crying about it. SAD."

With regard to writers - I couldn't give two hoots about their race, gender or sexual proclivity, as long as they write good material. In that way I am colour blind (and gender blind, etc). Please let's not bring in issues of cultural appropriation, otherwise us Brits will only be able to write about Albion!
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Herr Arnulfe
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skerrigan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:33 am
Amazingly the Vistani are now controversial - the equivalent of the Strigany in Warhammer. Given they're generally a neutral race, if a bit stereotypical, and have existed for about 30 years without being labelled problematic this surprised me.
It's a new paradigm, but it's here to stay so get used to it. Thinking about representation and inclusivity will ultimately make people better writers. There's a reason why most artists are leftists - it requires a certain level of sensitivity to appeal to peoples' emotions. Inclusive thinking isn't easy because you have to put yourself in the shoes of people very different from yourself, but it will become easier over time as we grow accustomed to it.
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skerrigan
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Labelling leftists as more sensitive sounds like the kind of generalization and discrimination that social justice supposedly stands against.

The Vistani/Strigany/Gypsy cliche is a stereotype.
Leftists are sensitive and make better artists is a stereotype.
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Herr Arnulfe
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skerrigan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:49 am
Labelling leftists as more sensitive sounds like the kind of generalization and discrimination that social justice supposedly stands against.

The Vistani/Strigany/Gypsy cliche is a stereotype.
Leftists are sensitive and make better artists is a stereotype.
There are exceptions of course, but as a rule leftists advocate for humanitarian causes, and the majority of successful artists identify as leftists. Not a coincidence.
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skerrigan
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Again, Herr Arnulfe, you're using fairly aggressive language to suggest that leftists (which I assume you identify with) have immutable characteristics that make them superior. In this case it is moral superiority, and a feeling of moral superiority, as we know, leads to justification of some pretty bad things. Be it the witch hunter that burns a heretic, or the activist who punches a guy minding his own business in the street because "he's a nazi and the law shouldn't apply to him".
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Sword of Solkan
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skerrigan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:05 am
Again, Herr Arnulfe, you're using fairly aggressive language to suggest that leftists (which I assume you identify with) have immutable characteristics that make them superior. In this case it is moral superiority, and a feeling of moral superiority, as we know, leads to justification of some pretty bad things. Be it the witch hunter that burns a heretic, or the activist who punches a guy minding his own business in the street because "he's a nazi and the law shouldn't apply to him".
I think there’s some fun to be had with the absolutist tendencies of the modern progressive movement as well. (“Anyone who disagrees with us about anything must be alt-right!”)

Perhaps the Empire might be plagued by a fringe cult that similarly demands absolute ideological purity of its members, including slavish obedience to its prophets’ ever-changing demands. Differentiating this cult of “Sigmarite Justice Warriors” from other forms of puritans and theocrats might be challenging - but perhaps said prophets might we claim to have a directly divinely inspired mandate for whatever brand of lunatic radicalism happens to be the flavour of the month, and work themselves into a frenzy when others “deny their experiences”.

Any disagreement, or even failing to express sufficient outrage at whatever the prophets decide the evil of the moment happens to be, is taken as a clear sign that the individual has fallen to Chaos. Even former rising stars, such as Jakey Rolling, can expect to be cast out and hunted down if they deviate from the dogma.
Chaos was the law of nature; Order was the dream of man.
Herr Arnulfe
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skerrigan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:05 am
Again, Herr Arnulfe, you're using fairly aggressive language to suggest that leftists (which I assume you identify with) have immutable characteristics that make them superior. In this case it is moral superiority, and a feeling of moral superiority, as we know, leads to justification of some pretty bad things. Be it the witch hunter that burns a heretic, or the activist who punches a guy minding his own business in the street because "he's a nazi and the law shouldn't apply to him".
I'm not being aggressive, just stating facts. I can send you studies on the political leanings of successful artists if you're interested. Of course correlation doesn't mean causation. It's entirely possibly for a right-wing artist to possess human sensitivity, or to re-wire their brains for sensitivity.
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Sword of Solkan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:16 am
Perhaps the Empire might be plagued by a fringe cult that similarly demands absolute ideological purity of its members, including slavish obedience to its prophets’ ever-changing demands. Differentiating this cult of “Sigmarite Justice Warriors” from other forms of puritans and theocrats might be challenging - but perhaps said prophets might we claim to have a directly divinely inspired mandate for whatever brand of lunatic radicalism happens to be the flavour of the month, and work themselves into a frenzy when others “deny their experiences”.
Already been done, it's called the cult of Solkan. :)
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Sword of Solkan
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Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:23 am
Sword of Solkan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:16 am
Perhaps the Empire might be plagued by a fringe cult that similarly demands absolute ideological purity of its members, including slavish obedience to its prophets’ ever-changing demands. Differentiating this cult of “Sigmarite Justice Warriors” from other forms of puritans and theocrats might be challenging - but perhaps said prophets might we claim to have a directly divinely inspired mandate for whatever brand of lunatic radicalism happens to be the flavour of the month, and work themselves into a frenzy when others “deny their experiences”.
Already been done, it's called the cult of Solkan. :)
Yeah, that could work. I’m pretty sure the Cult of Solkan were mainly intended as a send-up of the lunatic fringe of the Christian Right, but they’d work just as well as Progressives.

Claus Glinka’s moral crusade from the Genevieve novels could be another good option.
Last edited by Sword of Solkan on Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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Toby Pilling wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:14 am
Brits will only be able to write about Albion!
South East Albion.
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skerrigan
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Sword of Solkan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:27 am
Yeah, that could work. I’m pretty sure the Cult of Solkan were mainly intended as a send-up of the lunatic fringe of the Christian Right, but they’d work just as well as Progressives.

Claus Glinka’s moral crusade from the Genevieve novels could be another good option.
There's a rather interesting Gotrek & Felix story called A Place of Quiet Assembly that deals with a Solkan school, although the finale is a little one note.
seems ideal for games about punching nazis and misogynists in the face
modern WFRP should be telling stories about punching anti-maskers in the face because they're agents of Chaos
perhaps the racists are secret Khornate cultists that you can uncover and punch in the face guilt-free.
it's here to stay so get used to it.
and my new favourite
It's entirely possibly for a right-wing artist to possess human sensitivity, or to re-wire their brains for sensitivity.
Those all seem a bit agressive to me old chum. In other news, I think we'd better get you a Nazi-themed punching bad for Christmas. Or a thesaurus. :D

Anyway, enough from me before I do get sent for rewiring.
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Sword of Solkan
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skerrigan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:41 am
There's a rather interesting Gotrek & Felix story called A Place of Quiet Assembly that deals with a Solkan school, although the finale is a little one note.
Cheers, I must have missed that one! I’ll check it out.
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Herr Arnulfe
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skerrigan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:41 am
Those all seem a bit agressive to me old chum. In other news, I think we'd better get you a Nazi-themed punching bad for Christmas. Or a thesaurus. :D
Err, in addition to the DotR Castle Wolfenstein riff mentioned above, the entire concept of Chaos Cults is based around Nazi occultism and mysticism. The SoB cultists literally wear KKK robes. I hate to break it to you, but WFRP is at its core a nazi-punching game.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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skerrigan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:41 am
Herr Arnulfe wrote:seems ideal for games about punching nazis and misogynists in the face
modern WFRP should be telling stories about punching anti-maskers in the face because they're agents of Chaos
perhaps the racists are secret Khornate cultists that you can uncover and punch in the face guilt-free.
it's here to stay so get used to it.
and my new favourite
It's entirely possibly for a right-wing artist to possess human sensitivity, or to re-wire their brains for sensitivity.
Those all seem a bit agressive to me old chum. In other news, I think we'd better get you a Nazi-themed punching bad for Christmas. Or a thesaurus. :D

Anyway, enough from me before I do get sent for rewiring.
To be fair to Herr Arnulfe, he did write that:
Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:44 pm
To be clear, I don't advocate punching anyone IRL. "Punching X in the face" is just shorthand for games involving morally unambiguous villains.
On the other hand maybe....
Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:38 am
his trajectory was headed in that direction.
Herr Arnulfe
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totsuzenheni wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:07 am
To be fair to Herr Arnulfe, he did write that:
Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:44 pm
To be clear, I don't advocate punching anyone IRL. "Punching X in the face" is just shorthand for games involving morally unambiguous villains.
On the other hand maybe....
Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:38 am
his trajectory was headed in that direction.
I'm still waiting for someone to step up and explain where Le Passant was going with the Mussolini argument. Based on my fascism comments that he was responding to, I can only see two possible angles.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:12 am
I'm still waiting for someone to step up and explain where Le Passant was going with the Mussolini argument. Based on my fascism comments that he was responding to, I can only see two possible angles.
I'm not reading back through Le Passant's posts, i don't want to write for Le Passant, and i don't think that anyone here has a duty to 'step up' and provide you with a foil now that Le Passant has bowed out. Whatever the case of that may be, it seems to me that you only ever see two possible angles.
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totsuzenheni wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:57 am
I'm not reading back through Le Passant's posts, i don't want to write for Le Passant, and i don't think that anyone here has a duty to 'step up' and provide you with a foil now that Le Passant has bowed out. Whatever the case of that may be, it seems to me that you only ever see two possible angles.
I've PM'd with Le Passant and will be helping to sensitivity-read his Araby sourcebook. He declined to elaborate on the Mussolini argument, so unless someone else picks up that thread I can only assume the poor guy is being used as a far-right victim of lefty meanness.
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Hi,

As I explained to Herr Arnulfe in private, and tried to do here, to study History you need to study causes, consequences, and everything. Not just say it was "EVIL". Context. Ideology. Success or not. At what cost. For who. Efficiency, in a precise context Public reaction. Impact on society. And all those a debatable. Debatable does not mean "perhaps it's good, let's discuss it", it means "well, why, when, how and for what results ? Let's analyze and do not reproduce the same mistakes". At least in my good old french language, a "débat" is an exchange of ideas which aim to general knowledge and intellectual elevation. The latin practice of "Disputatio". Of course Italian fascism was bad. So what ? History needs us to study it in the same manner. Fictions can do the same, as long as it is accompanied with historical context.

That is neutral studies. That is true studies, as opposed to politically or culturally biased History as it was active up to the seventies. At least in France, don't know for North America. History don't judge things and people. Courts do it.

I'm not alt/far-right, I'm not alt/far-left. I don't care, my only "ideology" is "let's try to do things correctly", as long as it respects people and the law. Your English-world societal problems are not mine, and I have no interest in it. By the way, I think for an US inhabitants, every french politician would be far-left, so...what would I be ? I defend free healthcare, free school, easy and nearly free access to university, extremely controlled gun laws, cultural integration, free speech, free practice of religion as long as it respect the law of the Republic, extreme severity toward corruption, intolerance and sex crimes...and I have nearly all that (the extreme severity beeing, at moment, less extreme that it would be necessary).

I think my positions and interpretations of facts, history, culture and society are incompatibles with the north american point of view, so I will refrain myself to post on the topic (or on that subject) more than that. I honestly do not envy North America, seems complicated. :D
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