WFRP Social Justice & Representation

For general discussions about WFRP
Herr Arnulfe
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Le Passant wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:47 am
As I explained to Herr Arnulfe in private, and tried to do here, to study History you need to study causes, consequences, and everything. Not just say it was "EVIL". Context. Ideology. Success or not. At what cost. For who. Efficiency, in a precise context Public reaction. Impact on society. And all those a debatable. Debatable does not mean "perhaps it's good, let's discuss it", it means "well, why, when, how and for what results ? Let's analyze and do not reproduce the same mistakes". At least in my good old french language, a "débat" is an exchange of ideas which aim to general knowledge and intellectual elevation. The latin practice of "Disputatio". Of course Italian fascism was bad. So what ? History needs us to study it in the same manner. Fictions can do the same, as long as it is accompanied with historical context.
Correct, and I agreed with you that Italian fascism is worthy of academic study. In the context of this WFRP thread however, I had only claimed that there were no examples of "good fascism", and that fascism is not a system of government but rather a system of oppression. So I trust you understand now why I took your response as I did. Just because Italian fascism appealed to Churchill doesn't mean it wasn't evil.

In WFRP terms, Karl-Franz can be seduced to Chaos, without Chaos necessarily having to be morally ambiguous.
Le Passant wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:47 am
I think my positions and interpretations of facts, history, culture and society are incompatibles with the north american point of view, so I will refrain myself to post on the topic (or on that subject) more than that. I honestly do not envy North America, seems complicated. :D
It's widely understood that "fascism" is now used as a general term for jack-booted dictatorial oppression. Generally when someone splits hairs over the definition of fascism, it means they're trying to obliviate the argument. "Racism" is similarly understood as a broad category that includes Islamophobic, antisemitic and anti-indigenous prejudice. If you truly didn't understand that "fascism" was being used in the general sense, then I truly apologize.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:28 am
In WFRP terms, Karl-Franz can be seduced to Chaos, without Chaos necessarily having to be morally ambiguous.
I would agree with that, though at the same time i think that Karl Franz's motives and reasons can be morally ambiguous.
Herr Arnulfe
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totsuzenheni wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:46 am
I would agree with that, though at the same time i think that Karl Franz's motives and reasons can be morally ambiguous.
Exactly my point. :)
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Orin J.
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Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:28 am
Le Passant wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:47 am
I think my positions and interpretations of facts, history, culture and society are incompatibles with the north american point of view, so I will refrain myself to post on the topic (or on that subject) more than that. I honestly do not envy North America, seems complicated. :D
It's widely understood that "fascism" is now used as a general term for jack-booted dictatorial oppression. Generally when someone splits hairs over the definition of fascism, it means they're trying to obliviate the argument. "Racism" is similarly understood as a broad category that includes Islamophobic, antisemitic and anti-indigenous prejudice. If you truly didn't understand that "fascism" was being used in the general sense, then I truly apologize.
the funny thing about fascism is that it will invariably incorporate every possible prejudice as it always requires an "other" to oppress and attack.

and by "funny" i mean "nightmarish".

fascists breed racists and racists breed fascists. they need each other.
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skerrigan
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Sigmar's Justice & Peace Warriors

The teaching of Sigmar's Justice & Peace Warriors (or SJPW) comes from the teachings of a heretical sect that originated in the cursed city of Mordheim in the mid-1990s. It's leader, Sister Sigrid Knauer, was a firebrand preacher whose heresies were denounced by most right-thinking and even wrong-thinking priests of the time and included luminaries such as the Grand Theogonist and Bertha Bestraufrung, High Matriarch of the Sisters of Sigmar.

Sigrid Knauer, a flame-haired burly woman (thought to have Norscan blood and nicknamed by the locals of the Poor Quarter as "Big Red") had a penchant for lacing her preaching with sailor-like obscenities. The sect believed that men could not understand the true mysteries of Sigmar as it was woman who birthed the First Emperor. They also believed that the Empire had evolved into patriarchal structure created by men to compensate for this shortcoming.

"Big Red" was believed to have immolated when the comet hit Mordheim, delivering a sermon to it that it was woman-hating sorcery at its worst. The comet proved to be quite egalitarian, as history shows. Either way, "Big Red" was not seen after the comet's destruction of Fell Mordheim, though loyal disciples smuggled her works out of the city. Whether she died or not is unknown but local legends speculate that even Morr tired of listening to the soul of "Big Red" and that her spirit still haunts men and protects women in the City of the Damned.
Sword of Solkan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:16 am
Differentiating this cult of “Sigmarite Justice Warriors” from other forms of puritans and theocrats might be challenging - but perhaps said prophets might we claim to have a directly divinely inspired mandate for whatever brand of lunatic radicalism happens to be the flavour of the month, and work themselves into a frenzy when others “deny their experiences”.
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Sword of Solkan
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skerrigan wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:20 am
Sigmar's Justice & Peace Warriors

"Big Red" was believed to have immolated when the comet hit Mordheim, delivering a sermon to it that it was woman-hating sorcery at its worst. The comet proved to be quite egalitarian, as history shows. Either way, "Big Red" was not seen after the comet's destruction of Fell Mordheim, though loyal disciples smuggled her works out of the city. Whether she died or not is unknown but local legends speculate that even Morr tired of listening to the soul of "Big Red" and that her spirit still haunts men and protects women in the City of the Damned.
Oh, that is perfect! 😂😂😂

I’m definitely going to need to find a way to use that in my game. It would be wrong not to! 🙂
Chaos was the law of nature; Order was the dream of man.
runefang
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One of the problems of conservative humour in a historical roleplaying game (and lots of similar contexts) is that it can age badly. What might seem like a topical commentary on one of this years battleground in he culture war, can look a bit reactionary a few years later. And seeing as we're still referencing stuff in WFRP from 35 years ago, we'd be hostage to fortune.

eg, Imagine some pro Section 28 japes in 1987 WFRP.

Stuff taking the piss out of climate change activists in 2020 is gonna look extraordinarily foolish in 2055 (or even next week).

Imagine going back another 35 years from 1985 and reading what the edgy freedom fighters of freedom might consider witty in regards to segregation in the US, for another example.

Add this to the massively misogynistic ideas behind witchcraft which is contemporary to the WW, but also gives us plus ca change insights into contemporary misogyny, etc.
Herr Arnulfe
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Orin J. wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:16 pm
fascists breed racists and racists breed fascists. they need each other.
In most cases I agree that racism is a defining element of fascism, but there are a few examples of leftist fascism implemented in the name of social justice e.g. Castro.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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runefang wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:43 am
Stuff taking the piss out of climate change activists in 2020 is gonna look extraordinarily foolish in 2055 (or even next week).
Putting aside your choice to frame using the terms 'taking the piss' and 'conservative humour', maybe, maybe not. It might depend on what the joke is. I think it's more likely that most people won't know that there's a reference to 35 year old current events, which seems to be the case with first edition references today.
Herr Arnulfe
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runefang wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:43 am
One of the problems of conservative humour in a historical roleplaying game (and lots of similar contexts) is that it can age badly. What might seem like a topical commentary on one of this years battleground in he culture war, can look a bit reactionary a few years later. And seeing as we're still referencing stuff in WFRP from 35 years ago, we'd be hostage to fortune.
I agree with this 100%. However, I still think Toby, Stuart and James should start a far-right fanzine in protest against the new paradigm of inclusivity and representation. It could provide an outlet for all the WFRP fans who feel alienated by lefty sensitivity.
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Sword of Solkan
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Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:17 am
I agree with this 100%. However, I still think Toby, Stuart and James should start a far-right fanzine in protest against the new paradigm of inclusivity and representation. It could provide an outlet for all the WFRP fans who feel alienated by lefty sensitivity.
Sure thing, Jude... because everyone who disagrees with you is “far right”. What are you planning to do next now you’ve uncovered this hidden fascist conspiracy in our midst? 😂

It’s a shame you’re getting so salty, when we’ve come up with so many excellent ideas for increasing diversity and inclusion of underrepresented groups in WFRP. I for one can’t wait to include Arry the trans-Ogre in my campaign to raise the plight of translympians everywhere #Stunningandbrave
Chaos was the law of nature; Order was the dream of man.
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skerrigan
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Gentle ribbing is far right now? Well, ok, here's the cover for issue #1 of our mooted fanzine...

Image
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Herr Arnulfe
Posts: 134
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Sword of Solkan wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:27 am
Sure thing, Jude... because everyone who disagrees with you is “far right”. What are you planning to do next now you’ve uncovered this hidden fascist conspiracy in our midst? 😂

It’s a shame you’re getting so salty, when we’ve come up with so many excellent ideas for increasing diversity and inclusion of underrepresented groups in WFRP. I for one can’t wait to include Arry the trans-Ogre in my campaign to raise the plight of translympians everywhere #Stunningandbrave.
Transphobia and anti-feminism are far-right values at this juncture in history. Perhaps that will change, but that's where we stand right now. I don't see how I'm being salty. After several pages of alt-righters being outraged by nazi-punching references, I offered to help compile your transphobic collaboration for publication.
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Sword of Solkan
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skerrigan wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:39 am
Gentle ribbing is far right now? Well, ok, here's the cover for issue #1 of our mooted fanzine...

Image
😂😂😂😂😂😂

I was thinking of this one, but that works too!

https://me.me/i/political-spectrum-char ... r-12844821
Chaos was the law of nature; Order was the dream of man.
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skerrigan
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runefang
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skerrigan wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:39 am
Gentle ribbing is far right now? Well, ok, here's the cover for issue #1 of our mooted fanzine...

Image
You must realise, posting that, that you're the one being the emotional child, though. Surely?
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skerrigan
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Well, it is the nicer of the two labels I've been offered, so thanks.
runefang wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:17 am
You must realise, posting that, that you're the one being the emotional child, though. Surely?
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runefang
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skerrigan wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:27 am
Well, it is the nicer of the two labels I've been offered, so thanks.
runefang wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:17 am
You must realise, posting that, that you're the one being the emotional child, though. Surely?
Not really sure what you mean by that, but whining that someone's calling you a nazi is a similar sort of puerile argument to just calling everyone a nazi. Sorry I didn't have a cool little graphic or animated gif to prove it though. Coz that would have been proof, right?
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skerrigan
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I believe term is alt-right rather than nazis these days, but whatever. I do like gifs though. Anyway, enjoy yourself.
runefang wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:32 am
Not really sure what you mean by that, but whining that someone's calling you a nazi is a similar sort of puerile argument to just calling everyone a nazi. Sorry I didn't have a cool little graphic or animated gif to prove it though. Coz that would have been proof, right?
Verdant Castellan of Bretonnia and Purveyor of the Perilous Realm Podcast
makrellen
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Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:17 am
runefang wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:43 am
One of the problems of conservative humour in a historical roleplaying game (and lots of similar contexts) is that it can age badly. What might seem like a topical commentary on one of this years battleground in he culture war, can look a bit reactionary a few years later. And seeing as we're still referencing stuff in WFRP from 35 years ago, we'd be hostage to fortune.
I agree with this 100%. However, I still think Toby, Stuart and James should start a far-right fanzine in protest against the new paradigm of inclusivity and representation. It could provide an outlet for all the WFRP fans who feel alienated by lefty sensitivity.
I honestly think it's time you ask a mod to close this thread. I am sure you had honorable intentions with starting a discussion about inclusion and representation but that seems gone with a comment like that. Calling people out in the community as far-right serves absolutely no purpose.

We all know how small this community is and how hard it was to get something else going after StS shutdown. And you are clearly only still in this thread to create controversy with such statements.
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