Surprised opponents take less damage

The enemy lurks in shadows
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cavemanjimmy
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:18 am

The rules state that a surprised opponent cannot defend themselves in opposed Tests. If there is no opposed roll, this means the Success Level (difference between the success levels) will be potentially much lower than it would be if they defended themselves and rolled poorly. Can anyone explain this?
DiePingu
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2022 9:11 am

Yeah we have noticed this in my group, but not sure how to handle it yet
Robin
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:26 am

You could either:

1) Still make the opposed roll, but any success on the part of the surprised character is treated as a fail, albeit with zero success levels for the attacker.

2) Make it Very Easy (+60%) for the attacker, perhaps?

Regards,

Robin
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Hyarion
Posts: 260
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:56 am

Here's how my group has handled that problem:

Since the surprised character cannot defend themselves, the attacking player still rolls but gets a minimum of +0 SL. I like Robin's solution a bit better, as it allows for the defender's suprised reaction to be a negative hindrance.
I hold the glaive of Law against the Earth.
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Orin J.
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:39 pm

The rules for attacking someone unable to defend themselves are (for whatever reason) described in the rules for the Unconcious Condition, which details that the attack automatically hits the location of the attacker's choice At the maximum SLs possible to score. Melee attacks are opposed rolls so to score the maximum SLs possible would require both the attacker to roll their best and the defender to roll their worst rather than simply maxing out your attack roll. RAW, i'm confident that means you calculate based on your best roll and their worst roll possible. You also inflict a critical wound. (or the victim straight dies, if the GM wishes.)

this said, i like robin's rules MUCH better anyways. maybe use them instead.

Also remember that you gain advantage for attacking a surprised target, under gaining advantage on page 164.
DiePingu
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2022 9:11 am

Orin J. wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:12 pm The rules for attacking someone unable to defend themselves are (for whatever reason) described in the rules for the Unconcious Condition, which details that the attack automatically hits the location of the attacker's choice At the maximum SLs possible to score. Melee attacks are opposed rolls so to score the maximum SLs possible would require both the attacker to roll their best and the defender to roll their worst rather than simply maxing out your attack roll. RAW, i'm confident that means you calculate based on your best roll and their worst roll possible. You also inflict a critical wound. (or the victim straight dies, if the GM wishes.)

this said, i like robin's rules MUCH better anyways. maybe use them instead.

Also remember that you gain advantage for attacking a surprised target, under gaining advantage on page 164.
Okay totally never noticed that in the rules. Makes sense for someone who is unconscious and completely unable to defend themselves, think Robin's suggestion (with the usual other modifiers like Advantage) is much better for 'ordinary' surprise
Robin
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:26 am

Glad folks are liking the suggestions. Might want to do some play testing for optimisation it, though.

You could make it really unpleasant if the attacker got the Very Easy +60% and the surprised defender got the Very Hard -30% to their rolls.

Ideally, you'd keep it as simple as possible, but specific circumstances might make it tempting to vary these bonuses/penalties.

Regards,

Robin
macd21
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:28 am

Yes I’m theory you could inflict more damage if the defender rolled poorly, but as it is you get +30 to hit (+20 for surprise, +10 for advantage), which effectively means +3 damage. Assuming you hit you’ll be starting the next round with 2 advantage, and your opponent misses their turn, so all together it’s quite powerful.

And of course while letting a weak opponent roll to defend would potentially increase damage, it would probably result in strong opponents taking less. The surprised condition is a great way for inflicting damage on stronger opponents. It doesn’t matter how good (or bad) your target is, all that matters is your own ability.
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