Rules questions

Cubicle 7 // 2018
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ExReey
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri May 24, 2019 12:36 am

Fri May 24, 2019 12:55 am

I've finally received the Starter Set and core book and I'm reading through the rules for the very first time, and already (lots of) questions pop up! (The rules seem to be a bit less clear compared to WFRP v1?)

1. Surprised condition: it says any opponent trying to attack a surprised character gets a bonus of +20 to hit: does this already incorporate the +10 from advantage (when attacking surprised characters), or should I add both (so attacking surprised characters is really +30 instead of +20?)

2. Strength was one of the best advantages a combat oriented PC could buy in WFRP 1/2; not anymore it seems, or am I missing something? Since dmg is also depending on WS I would be better off buying WS instead of S, right?

3. Prone: when attacked, is it an opposed WS test or just a dramatic test?

4. What's the point in having percentile WS/BS/S/T when all we're ever using in combat are the tens (for calculating SL)? What's the difference between WS 41 and WS 49? It seems like you could just have WS 4 and buy +1 upgrades for it.

Thanks :)
Arcane Adventurer
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Fri May 24, 2019 3:00 am

Point 4 look at bottom of p153 Opposed Test - when both parties roll the same SL.

Point 3 If the pronee is defending then it's an Opposed test , if they aren't (just laying there) then it's an auto hit. See Helpless targets p162

Point 2 Generally buy the appropriate Melee or Ranged skill for more SL's and higher damage. You buy up Attributes at 25 or more per Advance, compared to 5 per Advance for the skill. Buying up Attributes tends to be better if the Attribute supports multiple skills so they all get the benefit,. Look at Intelligence for example as it support multiple skills and gives them all a raise whereas S only does Climb and Intimidate. A lot will depend upon what style of character you are building.

Point 1 Be careful using the term advantage as it is easily confused with Advantage (the 10% bonus you get per page 164). For Surprised look at p156/157 and you'll see that Surprise is clearly defined. You don't get an extra 10% unless you get Advantage for say Charging.

Note many words are capitalised and have specific meanings in 4e so be wary of being confused by their usage.

You aren't the first to mention the confusion caused by the haphazard way the rules are thrown together.
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totsuzenheni
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Fri May 24, 2019 7:02 am

ExReey wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:55 am
I've finally received the Starter Set and core book and I'm reading through the rules for the very first time, and already (lots of) questions pop up! (The rules seem to be a bit less clear compared to WFRP v1?)

1. Surprised condition: it says any opponent trying to attack a surprised character gets a bonus of +20 to hit: does this already incorporate the +10 from advantage (when attacking surprised characters), or should I add both (so attacking surprised characters is really +30 instead of +20?)
Reading pp.156 and 157 ( on Surprise in Combat ), p.169 ( on the Surprised condition ), and p.164 ( on Advantage ) i would say that attacking a character who is Surprised ( has the Surprised condition ) gives a +30 to hit, +10 of which comes from the +1 Advantage gained by the attacker for attacking a character with the Surprised condition, and +20 of which is gained by the attacker for attacking a character with the Surprised condition in Melee.

Note that there are some important differences between these bonuses to hit:
- The +1 Advantage resides with the attacker and remains with the attacker until they lose an Opposed Test in combat. It happens to have come from attacking a character with the Surprised condition but, like all Advantage, once it is acquired is independent of its origin.
- The +20 to hit in Melee resides with the character who has the Surprised condition and is lost when the Surprised condition is lost.

So, for example, lets say Character A attacks Character B in Melee. Character B has the Surprised condition. Character A gains a +20 to hit because Character B has the Surprised conditon and because this is a Melee combat. Character A also gains an additional +10 to hit because they gained +1 Advantage for attacking someone with the Surprised condition. Character A thereby has a +30 to hit Character B in this Melee combat. After this attack, whether or not this attack is successful Character B loses the Surprised condition. Let's say that the attack was successful and that Character A now wishes to attack Character B in Melee a second time. Character A does not gain the +20 to hit they gained in their first attack because Character B no longer has the Surprised conditon. Character A still gains a +10 to hit because they gained, and have so far retained, the +1 Advantage for attacking someone with the Surprised condition. Character A thereby has a +10 to hit Character B in this second Melee combat.
Last edited by totsuzenheni on Fri May 24, 2019 8:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Hyarion
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Fri May 24, 2019 7:10 am

ExReey wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:55 am
The rules seem to be a bit less clear compared to WFRP v1?
Remove the question mark, that is a true statement.
2. Strength was one of the best advantages a combat oriented PC could buy in WFRP 1/2; not anymore it seems, or am I missing something? Since dmg is also depending on WS I would be better off buying WS instead of S, right?

If what you want is to win a swordfight, then yes. WS is what you want. However, there are plenty of other uses of strength that are useful in combat.
3. Prone: when attacked, is it an opposed WS test or just a dramatic test?

It is still an opposed test, albeit with modifiers (see the "Combat Difficulty" chart on page 161).
4. What's the point in having percentile WS/BS/S/T when all we're ever using in combat are the tens (for calculating SL)? What's the difference between WS 41 and WS 49? It seems like you could just have WS 4 and buy +1 upgrades for it.
Because you still have to win the opposed test.
I hold the glaive of Law against the Earth.
CapnZapp
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Sat May 25, 2019 7:20 am

totsuzenheni wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:02 am
ExReey wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:55 am
I've finally received the Starter Set and core book and I'm reading through the rules for the very first time, and already (lots of) questions pop up! (The rules seem to be a bit less clear compared to WFRP v1?)

1. Surprised condition: it says any opponent trying to attack a surprised character gets a bonus of +20 to hit: does this already incorporate the +10 from advantage (when attacking surprised characters), or should I add both (so attacking surprised characters is really +30 instead of +20?)
Reading pp.156 and 157 ( on Surprise in Combat ), p.169 ( on the Surprised condition ), and p.164 ( on Advantage ) i would say that attacking a character who is Surprised ( has the Surprised condition ) gives a +30 to hit, +10 of which comes from the +1 Advantage gained by the attacker for attacking a character with the Surprised condition, and +20 of which is gained by the attacker for attacking a character with the Surprised condition in Melee.

Note that there are some important differences between these bonuses to hit:
- The +1 Advantage resides with the attacker and remains with the attacker until they lose an Opposed Test in combat. It happens to have come from attacking a character with the Surprised condition but, like all Advantage, once it is acquired is independent of its origin.
- The +20 to hit in Melee resides with the character who has the Surprised condition and is lost when the Surprised condition is lost.

So, for example, lets say Character A attacks Character B in Melee. Character B has the Surprised condition. Character A gains a +20 to hit because Character B has the Surprised conditon and because this is a Melee combat. Character A also gains an additional +10 to hit because they gained +1 Advantage for attacking someone with the Surprised condition. Character A thereby has a +30 to hit Character B in this Melee combat. After this attack, whether or not this attack is successful Character B loses the Surprised condition. Let's say that the attack was successful and that Character A now wishes to attack Character B in Melee a second time. Character A does not gain the +20 to hit they gained in their first attack because Character B no longer has the Surprised conditon. Character A still gains a +10 to hit because they gained, and have so far retained, the +1 Advantage for attacking someone with the Surprised condition. Character A thereby has a +10 to hit Character B in this second Melee combat.
Am on mobile so can't quote just last part, and might have misread anyway, but since the first attack hit you would gain another advantage for +20 on the second attack.

Of course A can only attack B two times in a row if A is actually faster which makes zero sense but that's 4E in a nutshell.
CapnZapp
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Sat May 25, 2019 7:23 am

ExReey wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:55 am
I've finally received the Starter Set and core book and I'm reading through the rules for the very first time, and already (lots of) questions pop up! (The rules seem to be a bit less clear compared to WFRP v1?)

1. Surprised condition: it says any opponent trying to attack a surprised character gets a bonus of +20 to hit: does this already incorporate the +10 from advantage (when attacking surprised characters), or should I add both (so attacking surprised characters is really +30 instead of +20?)

2. Strength was one of the best advantages a combat oriented PC could buy in WFRP 1/2; not anymore it seems, or am I missing something? Since dmg is also depending on WS I would be better off buying WS instead of S, right?

3. Prone: when attacked, is it an opposed WS test or just a dramatic test?

4. What's the point in having percentile WS/BS/S/T when all we're ever using in combat are the tens (for calculating SL)? What's the difference between WS 41 and WS 49? It seems like you could just have WS 4 and buy +1 upgrades for it.

Thanks :)
Again huge quote small answer:

2. Yes Skill is everything in this edition.

Sure being stronger (or having a weapon with higher Damage) isn't exactly nothing, but in general you can ignore that aspect and just focus on your melee skill.
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totsuzenheni
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Sat May 25, 2019 10:47 am

CapnZapp wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 7:20 am
totsuzenheni wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:02 am
ExReey wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:55 am
I've finally received the Starter Set and core book and I'm reading through the rules for the very first time, and already (lots of) questions pop up! (The rules seem to be a bit less clear compared to WFRP v1?)
1. Surprised condition: [ ... ]

So, for example, lets say Character A attacks Character B in Melee. Character B has the Surprised condition. Character A gains a +20 to hit because Character B has the Surprised conditon and because this is a Melee combat. Character A also gains an additional +10 to hit because they gained +1 Advantage for attacking someone with the Surprised condition. Character A thereby has a +30 to hit Character B in this Melee combat. After this attack, whether or not this attack is successful Character B loses the Surprised condition. Let's say that the attack was successful and that Character A now wishes to attack Character B in Melee a second time. Character A does not gain the +20 to hit they gained in their first attack because Character B no longer has the Surprised conditon. Character A still gains a +10 to hit because they gained, and have so far retained, the +1 Advantage for attacking someone with the Surprised condition. Character A thereby has a +10 to hit Character B in this second Melee combat.
Am on mobile so can't quote just last part, and might have misread anyway, but since the first attack hit you would gain another advantage for +20 on the second attack.
I was focussing on the effects of the Surprised condition but good spot none the less. So on the second attack Character A has a total of +2 advantage, +1 gained for attacking someone with the Surprised condition and +1 for winning an Opposed Test during combat, which in this case was the Roll to Hit.
ExReey
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Thu May 30, 2019 9:40 am

Thanks, that helps alot!

Some more questions (the rules really are a mess...):

5. This might be a bit stupid, but how do you kill an enemy (using the critical hit system)? If I understand it correctly, someone dies when you roll 100 on the critical hit table, or when the oppponent gets unconscious and you do more dmg than his T bonus?
Let's say our party is ganging up on the Troll from the Starter Set and get him down to 0 HP and stun him; from that moment everyone simply takes turns rolling on the critical hit table until someone rolls 100 or he becomes unconscious and takes 4 more wounds (T bonus)? It's just not really obvious IMO.

6. Combat against a LARGE opponent (1 size difference): just to make sure I get it right: melee attacks vs large opponent get +10 (p341), ranged attacks get +20 (p161)? The rules are really scattered all over the place!
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Orin J.
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Thu May 30, 2019 9:51 am

Regarding killing, not that the unconscious condition allows the GM to say any further melee blow kills automatically. this is an inideal approach to resolving the matter, but it is an answer to your question.

regarding size difference, attacking a large target is average (+20) difficultly, and being medium size grants the adventurers an additional +10 to their attack rolls for a total of +30. this is likely unintended but it is the rules as written currently.

to answer the question left unspoken, the editors were asleep at the wheel because they were too busy writing.
CapnZapp
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Thu May 30, 2019 2:21 pm

The answer to your question is that you die from taking more criticals than your Toughness Bonus.

Orin is right that the GM might just expedite the process, but even if he or she isn't, you die pretty quick if a gang keep whaling on. You don't even have to the resolve the crits; the critter simply dies after being hit a certain number of times (depending on how many crits it took prior).

Re: Size: the +20 modifier is specifically for "shooting" which makes me say "ranged only". As an aside, you practically always get the short range bonus too (my crossbow guy routinely gets the insane +40 modifier). The +10 bonus for being smaller is "to hit" which makes me say "all attacks, melee and ranged".

You're not forgetting the attackers' weapons gain the Damaging Quality as well? (And that's just for monsters the one step larger, when they get two or more steps larger it becomes really complicated)
ExReey
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Fri May 31, 2019 12:45 pm

Thanks for the replies.
CapnZapp wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 2:21 pm
The answer to your question is that you die from taking more criticals than your Toughness Bonus.
Do you mean number of hits under 0 (eg. I do 6 dmg to the troll who has 0 wounds -> 6>TB so he dies) OR do you mean the number of times one gets to roll on the critical table (eg I hit the troll 5 times after he is down so I roll 5 times on the critical table, 5>TB so he dies)?
Re: Size: the +20 modifier is specifically for "shooting" which makes me say "ranged only". As an aside, you practically always get the short range bonus too (my crossbow guy routinely gets the insane +40 modifier). The +10 bonus for being smaller is "to hit" which makes me say "all attacks, melee and ranged".
So ranged gets +30 to hit (+10 from being smaller and +20 according to page 161)?? That would be extremely confusing :)
You're not forgetting the attackers' weapons gain the Damaging Quality as well? (And that's just for monsters the one step larger, when they get two or more steps larger it becomes really complicated)
I'm talking about hitting a creature LARGER than yourself, so this doesn't really apply for this particular action.
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Orin J.
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Fri May 31, 2019 12:52 pm

ExReey wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 12:45 pm
Thanks for the replies.
CapnZapp wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 2:21 pm
The answer to your question is that you die from taking more criticals than your Toughness Bonus.
Do you mean number of hits under 0 (eg. I do 6 dmg to the troll who has 0 wounds -> 6>TB so he dies) OR do you mean the number of times one gets to roll on the critical table (eg I hit the troll 5 times after he is down so I roll 5 times on the critical table, 5>TB so he dies)?
When you take more critical wounds (not wounds themselves, the blows that cause you to record a critical result) than your toughness bonus you die. Oor when you have the unconsious condition and the GM says "that hit kills you".
fluminor
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Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:02 pm

When you take more critical wounds than your toughness (while you are at zero wounds?) you die.

Another rule question that has nothing to do with this thread: spells do not care for cover nor for shooting in melee, they hit any target you can see in the spell range as long as you make a successful casting test, correct?

Thanks
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Orin J.
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Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:17 pm

fluminor wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:02 pm
When you take more critical wounds than your toughness (while you are at zero wounds?) you die.

Another rule question that has nothing to do with this thread: spells do not care for cover nor for shooting in melee, they hit any target you can see in the spell range as long as you make a successful casting test, correct?

Thanks
correct, spells that cause ranged damage are Magic Missiles and automatically hit according to the rules.
Edit: on reflection, that's something of a wry callback to dungeons and dragons i think i'd like some of these spells to require aiming since they made cover baked into the difficulty test to hit.
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