Is Imperial polytheism realistic?

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Herr Arnulfe
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Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:26 am
Rick Priestley and Bryan Ansell wrote:
The countless shadow-selves of the dead flow together because they are mutually attracted by their common traits. Thus the shadow-selves of deceased warriors retain their most warlike traits, and flow together into a huge co-joined entity. This movement causes eddies and tides within the warp, and leads to the creations of vortices or whirlpools formed almost entirely of common traits. ln the Realm of Chaos these whirlpools are called the Chaos Powers [...] and Chaos Powers also exist which typify fellowship, charity, law and other redeeming characteristics." (Rick Priestley and Bryan Ansell, The Lost and the Damned, WFRP1-WFB3-W40K1, p. 7.)

Even Gods of Chaos are made from redeeming characteristics and shameful and vicious characteristics, albeit the shameful, vicious and antisocial characteristics are overwhelming... On the contrary, Old Worlder gods (in my view: Eltharin Gods that men did learn, in the Warhammer World, from Asurs) are way more balanced and collectively set a quite redeeming example.
Really nice citations on Gods and the Aethyr. In the above quote however, I believe RoC was using the term "Chaos Powers" to refer to all Aethyric entities (i.e. not just the "evil" Chaos gods). So Shallya would be a Chaos Power of charity.
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Orin J.
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Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:33 am
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:26 am
Rick Priestley and Bryan Ansell wrote:
The countless shadow-selves of the dead flow together because they are mutually attracted by their common traits. Thus the shadow-selves of deceased warriors retain their most warlike traits, and flow together into a huge co-joined entity. This movement causes eddies and tides within the warp, and leads to the creations of vortices or whirlpools formed almost entirely of common traits. ln the Realm of Chaos these whirlpools are called the Chaos Powers [...] and Chaos Powers also exist which typify fellowship, charity, law and other redeeming characteristics." (Rick Priestley and Bryan Ansell, The Lost and the Damned, WFRP1-WFB3-W40K1, p. 7.)

Even Gods of Chaos are made from redeeming characteristics and shameful and vicious characteristics, albeit the shameful, vicious and antisocial characteristics are overwhelming... On the contrary, Old Worlder gods (in my view: Eltharin Gods that men did learn, in the Warhammer World, from Asurs) are way more balanced and collectively set a quite redeeming example.
Really nice citations on Gods and the Aethyr. In the above quote however, I believe RoC was using the term "Chaos Powers" to refer to all Aethyric entities (i.e. not just the "evil" Chaos gods). So Shallya would be a Chaos Power of charity.
that is something of a reach, really. the last paragraph clearly sets the old world gods apart as separate stuff, and the "chaos powers which typify fellowship, charity, law and other redeeming characteristics" was more in reference to the old chaos gods of law (order being a subset of chaos and all) which geedubs largely allowed to fall to the wayside because marketing showed the evil spikey guys sold real good.
Herr Arnulfe
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Orin J. wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:44 am
that is something of a reach, really. the last paragraph clearly sets the old world gods apart as separate stuff, and the "chaos powers which typify fellowship, charity, law and other redeeming characteristics" was more in reference to the old chaos gods of law (order being a subset of chaos and all) which geedubs largely allowed to fall to the wayside because marketing showed the evil spikey guys sold real good.
The last paragraph that I quoted was actually Capitaneus Fractus' comment, not part of the RoC text. In older canon, it was fairly common for GW to conflate Chaos, Warp and Aethyr as essentially the same thing (i.e. the magical soup in the sky).
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Orin J.
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Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:03 am
Orin J. wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:44 am
that is something of a reach, really. the last paragraph clearly sets the old world gods apart as separate stuff, and the "chaos powers which typify fellowship, charity, law and other redeeming characteristics" was more in reference to the old chaos gods of law (order being a subset of chaos and all) which geedubs largely allowed to fall to the wayside because marketing showed the evil spikey guys sold real good.
The last paragraph that I quoted was actually Capitaneus Fractus' comment, not part of the RoC text. In older canon, it was fairly common for GW to conflate Chaos, Warp and Aethyr as essentially the same thing (i.e. the magical soup in the sky).
i think part of that is the tendency for the chaos-centric material to deliberately misinform as a way of "setting the tone" for much of the earlier days.
Warhammer fantasy roleplay, 1st ed. page 263 wrote: "More dangerous still, the collapse of the gateways enabled many of the entities living in the void to manifest themselves partially within our universe. These multi-dimensional beings had been appeased by the Old Slann, but now they were free to pursue their insane whims and compulsions in a world that had been parred to them for so long.

Many of these entities were small, malicious thing, uncaring for creatures that only has a physical life; others were larger and more powerful, the Gods and Demons of the void. These beings could exist simultaneously in several realities, although in each reality their consciousness might manifest itself in a different way, and often took form according to the influence of other wills. Thus, the strongest amongst them often gave shape to the weaker, while the least strong entered into the minds of living creatures and turned them to the service of new gods."
from this part of the intro it seems to pretty heavily imply that the realm of chaos (called the void at the time?) was unable to affect the mortal world at the time, and the slann accidentally slamming the door on their spaceships let them in. this still runs us into the issue of trying to sort out if the non-chaos gods exist in the void or even exist primaraly in the void- since it opens up the option that the other gods are multi-dimensional beings not native to the warp.

also:
Warhammer fantasy roleplay, 1st ed. page 264 wrote:Their already considerable knowledge of Old Slann magic allowed them to control and direct many of the new entities. From amongst these beings, the Elves chose several benign creatures and cultivated their worship, including the hedonistic creature the call Meneloth.
great job knife-ears, you actively sought worship of the same group of chucklenuts that laid waste to your creators. and NOW we have to sort out if any of the elf gods are also the non-elf gods to really have any chance of settling this argument.

and that grail knights are a sub-type of chaos chosen.
Knight of the Lady
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Orin J. wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:44 pm
and that grail knights are a sub-type of chaos chosen.
This is the most fake news ever (intended as a joke, if someone would miss it). :P
Herr Arnulfe
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Orin J. wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:44 pm
i think part of that is the tendency for the chaos-centric material to deliberately misinform as a way of "setting the tone" for much of the earlier days.
I wouldn't be surprised if "preserving the mystique" was part of GW's reason for conflating Chaos, Magic and Divinity. Several WFB heresies rely on the possibility that Sigmar, Shallya etc. are mere pawns of the Chaos Gods. Also, bear in mind WH canon was still in development at the time of 80's RoC (e.g. Black Library later added "Aethyr" to the lexicon in the 2000's, fleshed out "soul theory", etc.).

It's been a while since I studied RoC, but IIRC the section on Chaos Powers includes tree, rock and animal gods as well. My understanding is that Sigmar, Shallya etc. formed in the Aethyr from basic human emotions such as tribalism and charity, whereas the "Big 4" Chaos Gods were formed long ago by unknown (possibly alien?) entities, and now they feed on human soul energy. However, RoC just calls them all "Chaos Powers" to differentiate gods from Daemons and Daemon Princes.
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Orin J.
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Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:56 pm
Orin J. wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:44 pm
i think part of that is the tendency for the chaos-centric material to deliberately misinform as a way of "setting the tone" for much of the earlier days.
I wouldn't be surprised if "preserving the mystique" was part of GW's reason for conflating Chaos, Magic and Divinity. Several WFB heresies rely on the possibility that Sigmar, Shallya etc. are mere pawns of the Chaos Gods. Also, bear in mind WH canon was still in development at the time of 80's RoC (e.g. Black Library later added "Aethyr" to the lexicon in the 2000's, fleshed out "soul theory", etc.).

It's been a while since I studied RoC, but IIRC the section on Chaos Powers includes tree, rock and animal gods as well. My understanding is that Sigmar, Shallya etc. formed in the Aethyr from basic human emotions such as tribalism and charity, whereas the "Big 4" Chaos Gods were formed long ago by unknown (possibly alien?) entities, and now they feed on human soul energy. However, RoC just calls them all "Chaos Powers" to differentiate gods from Daemons and Daemon Princes.
so your argument is that since we have conflicting material in the books we don't have any wya to resolve this argument- haha, no i'm kidding realm of chaos was a vague cryptic edgefest and i feel we shouldn't take anything from those books not replicated in some more concrete form as serious because it was trying to link two settings they later decided were not linked.
Herr Arnulfe
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Orin J. wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:20 pm
so your argument is that since we have conflicting material in the books we don't have any wya to resolve this argument- haha, no i'm kidding realm of chaos was a vague cryptic edgefest and i feel we shouldn't take anything from those books not replicated in some more concrete form as serious because it was trying to link two settings they later decided were not linked.
All we know definitively is that Sigmar isn't a pawn of the Chaos Gods, but Shallya is (according to the End Times). The rest of the pantheon's Chaotic provenance or (lack thereof) remains unknown. :)
Bifi666
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Is atheism possible in a polytheist society? Enter Dantism.

In the southern provinces of the Empire a so far - and luckily - rare disease of Dantism is spreading. It is a form of religious scepticism, which in a world, where deities directly manifest themselves and religious practices are working, must be some kind of insanity. But let us try to explain Dantist philosophy, as it is professed by the hunted Tilean philosopher Dante Philodemus:

The gods are not interested in us, our doings or our wellbeing. People should spend their time in this world living a simple life, absent of pain, fear and suffering, and find solace in everyday joys. If mankind acts without the blessing of the gods, it becomes the maker of its own fate - in the bounds of natural order. Perhaps the gods themselves are not such all-powerful and all-seeing beings as the priests would lead us to believe. Perhaps they do not possess an independent will and freedom - aren't they also subordinated to a higher natural order? In Dante's verses:

The fire is hot, the water cold, refreshing cool the breeze of morn;
By whom came this variety? From their own nature was it born.


And the immortal soul? Don't be daft, who ever saw a soul with their own senses?

It is quite probable that some small Dantist communities exist in the Empire. This religious attitude is, however, understood as the highest order of blasphemy by the authorities, as placing human thoughts, desires and acts above the Godly Order - and an obvious gate to Chaos.


Note: The verses above come from Sarvasiddhanta Samgraha, a key treatise in the sceptic Indian philosophy of Charvaka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charvaka). The Dantist philosophy is strongly inspired by Greek Epicureanism, with Philodemus being a pupil of Epicurus and the author of a portion of central Epicurean texts. Dante refers obviously to Dante Alighieri, who reserved for the Epicureans the lowest circle of Hell and I thought such a subversion quite fitting. The whole Dantist/Epicurean idea owes its thanks to a series of articles on polytheism by Brett Devereaux (https://acoup.blog/2019/10/25/collectio ... knowledge/).
Knight of the Lady
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Interesting take on atheism in a polytheistic society but I personally feel that you're going to heavily into a monothesistic view when describing the opposition to atheism.

References to a "Godly Order" makes little sense with no clear big cheese in the pantheon. I think that a fear the atheists will either draw down the anger of the gods on the community at large or cause a rift between mortals and gods which the forces of Chaos can exploit makes for a much more likely objections, in my opinion.
Bifi666
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I meant Godly Order as all individual deities having their place in the pantheon and ruling over specific domains, as a system of relationships between gods, mortals and the world (antagonism to small-c chaos as well as opposed to Chaos). There are rare changes in the Godly Order such as when one deity takes over the domain of another deity, a deity dies or a new deity ascends, but otherwise it is a stable construction. The defense of this Godly Order as a system takes place in the supreme institution of Imperial polytheism - the annual Grand Conclave held in Altdorf. Any agreements and measures adopted against Dantism would then be carried out by the individual cults and their orders (subordinated organisations, mainly templar and inquisition orders) or perhaps also the Emperor (Reiksguard, the courts, Colleges of Magic...) or the electors and other high nobility (local armies and militias, their bounty and witch hunters) would chime in as well. So it is not that individual monotheisms are going to fight this form of threat - if it is indeed understood as a serious threat - each on their own.

(I didn't mean "Godly Order" as a series of monotheistic organisations or worldviews.)

However, the anger and rift ideas are cool!
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Orin J.
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you've run into the interesting conundrum of "how much authority does the church actually HAVE over itself". can the church make decisions on behalf of their god for political or administrative reasons? could such a conclave trust deities to accept their agreements or would they have to reconcile these matters consistently over time when the respective gods grow angry with their choices?
Bifi666 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:49 am
And the immortal soul? Don't be daft, who ever saw a soul with their own senses?
this argument doesn't work well in warhammer, we see the souls of the damned all the time, as ghosts and such. death mages specialize it that, being called spiriters and all.
Braddoc
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Back in 2nd there was a ''Synod of the Faiths'', some big meeting where all the Heads of the Churches met at the Imperial Palace, With the Emperor presiding; even if he was usually just there for the first day- and even then, that mostly mostly just the entrance of all the Leaders of the Faiths and then what was going to be discussed, with the Emperor removing himself due to having an Empire to run.

I recall the Grand Priests of Ranald turning it into a joke; the first day he was there, then on Day two it was a woman (who stated she was the Head of the Church of Ranald) and then things went downhill from there with everyone bickering about this or that, but it was an occasion to reach some form of general agreements between them, mostly against Chaos, heretics and the like.

At the local level, I believe it was down to the Head of the local Temple to decide; During a trial, the local head of the Temple of Verena would have precedence over the High Priest of the Temple of Sigmar for example- while he might have priority when it came to Heretics/Witch trials, The High Priest of Verena would stil insist and use his position in case the accusations are too weak or questionnable in the High Priest's view; if the accused was found in a ritual, with Chaos litterature and was a user of foul magic, he'll certainly bless the gallows.

The High Priest of Sigmar would have great influence over political affairs in the region where the Cult is strong, but less in the North, where Ulric would be the main religious consultant, like in Talabecland, Taal would have precedence. Shalaya would always be respected, just like in War, Myrmidia would have a voice with those with a bit more experience- Sigmar/Ulric might be taken more seriously than some female foreign Deity.

Ranald's Priests would make sure the local thieves pay thier dues, and possibly act as mediator between the different criminal organisation- or even as an opposing force if one decide to screw'em and 'go solo' so to speak.
Capitaneus Fractus
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Two points I had in mind, but never took the time to share:
Orin J. wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:24 pm
khaine's cult is forbidden because the cult murders people as part of their faith. it's not a religious position it's literally most of the are murderers and considered incitement to violence.
knowing what an edgelord khaine is he probably likes it that way.....
In a polytheist society, murderers would be outlaws, indeed, so the Khaine's cult would be quite strictly controlled to avoid excess. It wouldn't be forbidden, however.
Khaine would be legitimately worshipped for just vengeance, or even, institutionally, for capital punishment of criminals for example.
On the other side, we can even imagine sacrifices done to Khaine in order to appease him and hope the end of family feuds or things like that...
Wolf wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:58 pm
Is it a problem if some of Warhammer’s presentation of religion veers towards the henothestic, rather than a fuller polytheism?
It isn't a problem, but I feel polytheist societies are more interesting to represent. The best solution is to considerate the society as polytheist as a whole (something it is theoretically albeit it isn't described that way in details). However among the society, some extremists cults (such as those described in the Tome of Salvation) have henotheist or even monolatrist tendencies. This might even be the mark of a chaos corruption against the divine balance of the society.
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Orin J.
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Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:07 pm
Orin J. wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:24 pm
khaine's cult is forbidden because the cult murders people as part of their faith. it's not a religious position it's literally most of the are murderers and considered incitement to violence.
knowing what an edgelord khaine is he probably likes it that way.....
In a polytheist society, murderers would be outlaws, indeed, so the Khaine's cult would be quite strictly controlled to avoid excess. It wouldn't be forbidden, however.
Khaine would be legitimately worshipped for just vengeance, or even, institutionally, for capital punishment of criminals for example.
On the other side, we can even imagine sacrifices done to Khaine in order to appease him and hope the end of family feuds or things like that...
while true it's severely undercutting what i said: Khaine demands murders as a matter of faith. the cult would be outlawed not for the religion but because there's not really any tolerable way to allow it in any non-genocidal community. Khaine's worship is very closely died to murder and is suspect to the point that any openly faithful are pretty much assumed criminals. recurring mentions of hidden worshippers in the old world exist throughout the books but the cult is not allowed to openly practice their faith as a public safety matter, rather than a religious one.
Capitaneus Fractus
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Well, all societies -including non-genocidal ones- have or had cases of approved or tolerated murders... Being institutional murdering (such as capital punishment, war), legal murdering (such as feuds, gladiators or murder of a public enemy) or cases of not legal but socially approved murdering (crimes of honour, duels, tyrannicides...) or even somewhat disapproved but tolerated murdering (such as the murder of own slaves or of helots). If Khaíne demands murders as a matter of faith and if cultists of Khaíne happen to murder the right victims under the right circumstances so, the society even see it as something being either useful or a lesser evil, then they might perfectly do it with the indifference or even the approval of the society.

In return, the society simply try to restrain bad habits and to favour good ones... Albeit they didn't liked him much, and even feared him, Greeks didn't forbidden the cult to Ares nor, in the official setting, Azurs and Asrai forbid the cult of Khaíne in Warhammer. They even worship him (in time of war, for example). Why Old Worlders wouldn't?

My view is that Khaíne can be seen as a god of warfare, self justice and revolt against oppression, which are its main positives aspects, especially for the poor and marginal populace. He could be worshipped before battles and wars, before the execution of criminals, before and during a blood feud. So could he be before a crime of honour, a duel of honour, before a political murdering, &c. Overwhelming, insatiable in battle, destructive, and man-slaughtering, he is associated with bloodshed, violence, and murder hence is perceived as a very dangerous force to whom the clergy, the nobility, the bourgeoisie, farmers and labourers tend to be very suspicious, so the cult is strictly supervised and in order to enforce this control, only public cults of Khaíne are allowed, not privates ones. And while being public, those cults still are somewhat hidden.

Sure, he is not only worshipped by bounty hunters and executioners but also by contract killers, paid assassins and hatchet men. Still, he isn't forbidden because he is, like other Old World gods part of the divine society which is at the image of the human society. The Human society is violent, so the divine is. Both societies being linked by religious and moral agreements. Letting believers, especially poor ones, worship him is also an useful decompression valve for the society. Khaíne is indeed very popular among peasants, serves, slaves, and urban day labourers, who see his help as a last resort when the injustices of the regime weight too much on them, when verenean "fair trial" is of no help and when only bloodshed can solve the problem.

On the other hand, believers can also offer sacrifices to Khaíne to appease him and those who would seek revenge against them, in the hope that their debts are forgaves, as they also have forgiven their debtors.
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Orin J.
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i understand you feel you should explore how khainite worship could work, but i want to make it clear that the lore outright states that the cult of khaine is outlawed, full-stop, throughout the old world. the cult itself is simply linked inexorably to ritual murder and anti-social sentiments and represent too much of a threat to governance to simply tolerate.
Capitaneus Fractus
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Orin J. wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:25 pm
i understand you feel you should explore how khainite worship could work, but i want to make it clear that the lore outright states that the cult of khaine is outlawed, full-stop, throughout the old world. the cult itself is simply linked inexorably to ritual murder and anti-social sentiments and represent too much of a threat to governance to simply tolerate.
Your allegation is however not correct: as a matter of fact, the "lore" outright state that the cult of Khaine is outlawed in the Empire and most human (and arguably dwarven) realms of the Old World, while being lawfully worshipped in Athel Loren, in the Laurelorn realm and other elven realms of the Old World.

Anyway, the object of this thread was on the realism of Imperial polytheism and my point was that having Khaíne's cult outlawed in the Empire -which is the official statement- is not realistic, for the reasons I've previously gave. Polytheism simply doesn't work like that...
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Orin J.
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politics and religion not mixing well is a fairly standard foundation of human behaviour, so that's not an issue to me.

also i've never considered elven colonies as part of the "old world", as that's a human distinction. honestly to the elves and dwarfs it's more of a "new world" by their histories, it's just they arrived in it before humans evolved there.
Capitaneus Fractus
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Alleging that "[p]olitics and religion not mixing well [would be] a fairly standard foundation of human behaviour" show that you adopt a pure Abrahamic monotheistic frame of reference on politics, religion or "human behaviour", which is simply absurd to considerate polytheist politics, religion or "human behaviour"... Again, polytheism doesn't work like that, and the unrealism of Imperial polytheism come from this kind of faults of reasoning.
Polytheistic religion doesn't function the same way than monotheistic religion. It doesn't have the same principles. It doesn't imply the same relation with the society, with the thought, with politics. The link to the lesson of the College of France I gave previously explain it quite well.

By the way, "I understand you feel you should explore how" elven colonies could not be part of the "old world", but the Old World (Elthin Arvan in Eltharin) is a continent and "the lore outright states that" Elven colonies in the Old World (or Dwarven realms in the Old World) are, "full-stop",... in the Old World ;).

As a side note, would "the cult itself [be] simply linked inexorably to ritual murder and anti-social sentiments and represent too much of a threat to governance to simply tolerate", would "there's not really any tolerable way to allow it in any non-genocidal community" that it wouldn't be tolerated by Azurs, Asrai, Eonirs, &. alii. Even leaving aside the polytheism unrealism, it underline inconsistencies: The way they worship Khaíne show that the cult of a god is the reflect of worshippers' own society (which is realistic). That is how Druchii worship very differently Khaíne and how the cult, in Naggarond, is quite different to the one in Ulthuan or those in the elven communities of the Old World. Why would the Empire, Bretonnia or Kislev follow a different path?

To conclude: the cult of Khaíne might be not compatible with the Old World society: Khaíne might be understood as being a god of Chaos, an aspect of Khorne as it is sometime suggested. However, if so, he wouldn't be related to Asuryan or to Mórr as their brother or to Ge as its consort, in Oldworlder myths. He wouldn't be a major figure of the Eltharin pantheon. Khaíne couldn't be part of the society of the gods worshipped by the society of men.
If, on the contrary, Khaíne is the brother of Mórr or of Asuryan, the consort of Ge, a major figure of Eltharin pantheon, then, he couldn't be considered as a god of Chaos. His siblings show he is part of the society of worshipped gods. He might be less appreciated than other worshipped gods, he might even be feared or hated. His cult might be subject to strict restrictions. His cult, however, couldn't be forbidden.

Hachmann of the former Warhammer Heroes website enlightened that, back in good old time where WFRP1 was simply called WFRP... Alas, his website did disappears in the limbo of the world wide warp.
Last edited by Capitaneus Fractus on Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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